About the Hosts

Christy Wilkie provides therapy for children and adolescents, ages 5-25, who have complex behavioral health issues. She combines her extensive clinical expertise with a belief in kids, and has a unique ability to find and develop their strengths. She works hard to be an ideal therapist for her clients, doing what is best to fit their needs.

Lucas Mitzel provides therapy for children, adolescents, and adults, ages 5 - 30. He believes building relationships with clients is the most important piece of successful therapy. He loves what he does because it allows him to walk next to people he would never have met had he chosen a different profession, as they work to make amazing life changes. He has the honor of meeting people at their worst, all while watching them grow into the people they’ve always wanted to be.

Transcript
Grief: Everything's Fine (Except It's Not)

Featuring Christy Wilkie, LCSW, and Lucas Mitzel, LCSW, Dakota Family Services

Announcer:

This episode of, Is It Just Me, is brought to you by Dakota Family Services, your trusted partner in mental and behavioral health, whether you need in-person or virtual care. The team of professionals at Dakota Family Services is dedicated to supporting children, adolescents, and adults in their journey to better mental health.

Christy:

Disrupting life patterns and life routines that aren't serving you.

Lucas:

It's how we feel that keeps us going.

Christy:

You can be a masterpiece in a work of art all at the same time.

Lucas:

Hey everyone, I'm Lucas.

Christy:

And I'm Christy.

Lucas:

And you're listening to the Is It Just Me podcast.

Christy:

Where we aim to provide education, decrease the stigma, and expel some myth around mental health.

Lucas:

Christy, is it just me or does grief suck?

Christy:

It sucks <laugh>. It is not just you. It sucks. And it's difficult.

Lucas:

Why is it difficult?

Christy:

Because I think, well, a number of reasons, but A, you're grieving, and so that's hard. B, I feel like people think there's a right way to grieve and a wrong way to grieve, and it's something that they should be doing or something that they shouldn't be doing instead of just experiencing it for what it is. And so you get, feel like you judge yourself about.

Lucas:

Yeah, there's a lot of judgment.

Christy:

You're doing enough. Are you doing too much? Like, should I still be sad? Why am I still sad? These are all questions that I get every week. All the time.

Lucas:

Yes. All the time. And I think that one of the big things is, you know, the difference between grief and grieving, where grief is just, it's the emotion that crashes over you. It's oftentimes considered like a wave. Whereas grieving is the process of going through that. And that is a slightly, I mean, I think it's an important distinction, and grieving oftentimes is associated with like, you're changing your relationship with grief as you go through that mm-hmm <affirmative>. And there's not, like, like you said, there's no one way to do that necessarily, or like a quote unquote "right way." I often will tell people that the only right way to grieve is to grieve. Which.

Christy:

Mindfully,

Lucas:

It's not, doesn't, I mean, I don't know, it sound, maybe it sounds profound or something like that, <laugh>, but it's, it's really the only wrong way to do it is to not, and it's, it's a very personal journey for everybody. Um, but you're right, there's a lot of judgment and self-doubt that goes along with it.

Christy:

And it's complicated. And I think, you know, when you say that it's a process, I feel like people who are grieving often want to arrive at a destination, and there isn't necessarily a destination if you're grieving something, it's just something that sort of stays there. Have you heard of the Grief Box? Have I talked to you about this before?

Lucas:

I think so. But, talk about it.

Christy:

It's like, so when I explain this to people, it's like, there's a grief, grief box. Right? And on the side of the box, there's a button, like a grief button. And every time that button gets hit, it hurts just like it did when you first found out that something that you had lost something. Right. And so when you put a ball in the box, when it's, if it's a new, if it's something that's new, the ball is really big. And so when you put it in the box, it's hitting that button all the time. So it's like, it's just like this like overwhelming sort of thing where it's like, I just feel like crap all the time. Eventually over time, the ball gets smaller and as the ball gets smaller, it rolls around in the box and, and it, it, so it doesn't hurt maybe as frequently, but when it hits the button, it still can hurt just as much as it did when it Right when it happened. And those balls in the box never go away. They're just, they're always there. And every now and then it's gonna, it's gonna hit the button and it's gonna be like, Ooh, that is still there. That's still hurts. You know,

Lucas:

And I, I think that, you know, it starts off really big because everything's fresh. And it's like, when it's really big, every single thing reminds us of whatever it is that we're grieving. Even things that, um, I, I'm just speaking for myself, but like, I'll experience grief and then something will remind me of the thing that I'm grieving of mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I'm like, that doesn't even, like how did that even connect?

Christy:

Right. That's that I'm, I'm, I'm stretching for connections.

Lucas:

Right. <Laugh>. And I can't think of like a specific example, but I just, I, I remember feeling that way, uh, when it would happen. Like, this doesn't make a ton of sense as to why this reminded me of this.

Christy:

Well, And I think it's because you're always trying, you're always trying to find a connection to what you lost. Right, and so I think that's a very normal thing for the brain to do, is to make those connections to, to somehow feel like you're still connected to whatever it is that you lost, because it's comforting in some way.

Lucas:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's important too that we, we are using, I think when people think of grief, they think of you've, you've lost a loved one. Yeah. Or, or there's a death mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or something like that. And we're very purposefully not saying you lost someone. <laugh> we're saying something. Yes. Right. Because it doesn't have to be a person. It could be you lost a job. It could be that you lost some sort of status. During Covid mm-hmm <affirmative>. We dealt with a lot of grief. Not sur necessarily surrounding all like death or illness, but like we had a lot of seniors who couldn't play their sports.

Christy:

Yeah. Missing out on things, Yeah.

Lucas:

And we had a lot of, um, people just who couldn't participate in what they would consider who they are. And in their activities mm-hmm <affirmative>. And there was a ton of grief surrounding that.

Christy:

A lot, a lot of grief. And, and it was really hard for people to characterize it as that because, 'cause they were going through all of the DDAs, right. The depression, anger, denial, bargaining, acceptance, all those. They were going through all of them, but they couldn't, they, they had a hard time thinking about it as like an actual loss. And that, that's exactly what it is. I think even something that people take for granted is if, I think a lot of people in their head have an idea of what they want their family to look like. And so if your family doesn't end up looking like that, whether it be through, let's say you wanted a boy and a girl and you know, whatever, and you end up getting two boys, you end up getting two girls. You can still be happy about that and grieve the loss of what you had in your head is your family. Or if you, if you have a child who's got special needs or neurodivergent, you can be happy that that person is still here and that, and love them with all your heart. And also grieve the loss of what you had in your head as being what your family was gonna look like. Both can exist without guilt.

Lucas:

Yes, absolutely. 'cause all feelings are valid.

Christy:

Absolutely.

Lucas:

And, and so another, those are really good examples. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Of those kind of like dialectics that we run into where two things can be true at the same time, yet opposing one another. And I, we see this a lot with also relationships where we have somebody who's maybe in an abusive relationship and they leave that person, they know it's the right decision. They're making, like all the logical right decisions, they can rationalize that. And yet they still are grieving the loss of the relationship. Because it's still sucks. 'cause grief sucks. And, but there's a lot of confusion that can come with that for people. Like they're like, this person was hurting me, and yet I'm sad that we're not together anymore.

Christy:

Oh, yeah.

Lucas:

And it's a combination of you lost a relationship, but also you're grieving the loss of a future you thought you were gonna have with that person. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And that's really hard.

Christy:

Yeah. And that's why it takes people who are in domestic violence situations up to seven times to leave because they maybe know it isn't right. And then they leave and then they wanna come back and it's like, oh my gosh, why do they keep doing that? It's an, it's part of the abuse cycle. I also think in, in relationships are an interesting one because you don't just lose that relationship when you lose, when you break up with somebody or you get divorced or whatever the case may be, you lose that person, you lose their family. Or if maybe they had kids, or let's say that there's pets involved. Like there is a lot of grieving that happens when you end a relationship. It's not, it's not just the one person. I mean, I've had more people, and I'd like to admit that have said I stay with them because of their family, because they love their mom and dad, or they love their nieces and nephews or whatever the case may be, whoever's in their family. And they're like, I don't wanna, I, if I get divorced from them or I leave him or her, I lose them too.

Christy:

And it's like, yeah, you do. You're not just grieving one loss or shared friendships that you had.

Lucas:

Yeah. That's another big one. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it's a process. Like, it's, uh, super common question I get is, when will this be done? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. <laugh> and the answer, I don't know. But it will end. And that's the important thing.

Christy:

Everything changes and ends. That's I for, for the better or the worse. Right. Like everything, everything changes and ends. And I think with grief in general, I, this is just my own personal thought is that I don't think it ever goes away. I think it just changes.

Lucas:

Yeah. Yeah.

Christy:

You know?

Lucas:

Yep.

Christy:

It's always there.

Lucas:

Yeah. And I, I think, and I tell people this a lot, like with that grief button, visual mm-hmm <affirmative>. I really, really like using that for some of my clients. And some of the things that we talk about is that that little, the ball or the button might get really, really small, however you like to visualize it, but it might always be there depending on what it is that you're grieving. And now you might, the ball might miss it more times than not mm-hmm <affirmative>. But there might be a situation, or maybe it's even just an anniversary mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because anniversaries are a huge trigger when it comes to grief. That everything's just going fine. The ball's just bouncing around normally and then all of a sudden just stops and takes a right turn, goes straight for it. And you can't necessarily control that, but like all of a sudden you're grieving again. And it's like, what is this? I haven't felt this in a while.

Christy:

Why am I in the middle of a grocery store having a mental breakdown? <laugh>.

Lucas:

Right right. To be, I mean, a little, a little vulnerable about this, but like my, uh, good example of this is when my, my grandmother passed away a few years ago mm-hmm <affirmative>. And she loves owls, like obsessed with owls. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Had them all over the house. And I, my, my wife and child went to the store and my child wanted to pick out a, an ornament. And he, I came home and he had an owl ornament that he brought to me. And I just like, it was like, oh, no. There it is. <laugh>. I didn't expect that today.

Christy:

It's still fresh.

Lucas:

yup.

Christy:

Feels so fresh.

Lucas:

It's still there. Still there sometimes. So, and that,

Christy:

Good to know, you're alive.

Lucas:

Yeah. <Laugh>. But it would be really easy for me to be judging myself and being like, wow, I'm doing again. Like, Yeah. seriously, it's okay.

Christy:

Or it was three years ago, Lucas, move on. Right.

Lucas:

Right. Yeah. That, oh man.

Christy:

Those are all not helpful, not helpful thoughts.

Lucas:

No. And it's okay that I've felt that. Right. And by letting myself feel it, I was able to get through that. Right. It's not necessarily I got over it. Right. It's, I got through it.

Christy:

Right. I don't think you ever get over it. And these are, these are not words that we should use for ourselves or to anybody else who you're trying to help or support going through grief. Just be like, get over it. Or have to just get over this. I hear that all the time. I have to just get over this. I have to, I should. All of those words, we need to just like clean outta the vocabulary.

Lucas:

Absolutely.

Christy:

Because it's just whatever you feel is what you feel. And the best way to to is just to get through it, is to just allow yourself to feel whatever you're feeling. Yeah. It doesn't matter how long ago it was, I still grieve my, wow! I'm named after my uncle. His last name was Christensen. They always called him Christy. He was killed in a car accident before I was even born. I never even met the guy. And there are times when I grieved the loss of my uncle that I'd never even met. And some people would be like, that's weird. And it's like, no, I don't.

Lucas:

Yeah. No.

Christy:

You're Grieving the loss of, I could have had an uncle. I don't have one now. I have two aunts, they're great, but I don't have an uncle. And so I think, you know, what would that have been like? And so I kind of grieve the loss of that. Yeah. There's nothing, there's no matter how you're feeling, it's okay.

Lucas:

Right. And I think that you bring up a a good point too of this, of grieving other people's situations. Yeah. And having, I mean, we call that empathy. Yeah. But sometimes it can have, whatever's going on can have a really, like a, a significant connection to you somehow, or it can just remind you of something and then you just start grieving somebody else's loss.

Christy:

Yes. I think that that was the hardest thing for me when, like, when my grandparents died. Right. It was really sad that my grandparents died, but watching my parents grieve, the loss of their parents was like, oh yeah. Just like a knife to the heart, Neck. And I still think about it and I could still get like emotional about thinking about watching them go through that. 'cause it is, it's hard to watch other people hurt too, even if you're hurting at the same time. Yeah.

Lucas:

And on the flip side, if you don't experience that, if you, if you like, that's okay. Yeah. I've had people who I've talked to who like, all they have to do is hear a story on the news of something that happened to a kid or a family or something like that. And they're bawling. Yeah. Right. That's fine. Yeah. And then I have people who could hear that and are just totally Okay. Yep. Also, okay. Yeah.

Christy:

Yeah. Which goes back to all these judgements that we have about how we should or shouldn't grieve. So like, I've had clients who've had losses and they come in and they get, they're nervous about the funeral because funerals are a very public display of grief. And I think people worry about what other people are thinking of them when they, when they're grieving the loss of somebody. Because sometimes people cry a lot and sometimes people don't cry. Um, you can go to a funeral and the thing about grief, depending on the loss and the sometimes the tragic nature of loss sometimes is like, if you're in a traumatic place in your head, it's very hard to tap into all of the emotions that are in your body. Yeah. 'cause your body is just te telling you, we have to get through it. We just have to get through it. We have to get through it. You go on survival mode. And so you're maybe not tapping into your emotions until six weeks afterwards. And that's okay. And so if you go to a funeral and you don't cry, and people are like, I feel like I'm dead inside, like, well, that, that's probably more of a survival tactic that your body's doing than you're an unfeeling narcissistic jerk. Right. <laugh>, you know, <laugh>.

Lucas:

Yeah. And that actually, there's a lot of research on, on grief mm-hmm <affirmative>. And here he comes, here it go, here he comes, folks ready, guys with buckle up with the research, <laugh> and the talking. Exactly what you're saying. And grief is considered, um, some research done by, uh, Dr. Lisa Schulman. She says that grief is considered emotional trauma Yeah. To the brain. Right. And so because of that, our brain is on a, like a biological psychological level, really, really impacted by that. Including memory issues, behavioral problems, sleep issues, impact to even your biological functions, uh, such as immune system. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or your, uh, brain fog or even like managing your heart rate Right. Gets impacted by grief. And so what happens when you grieve and you experience some emotional trauma, just like any trauma, your body goes into like a fight or flight response mm-hmm <affirmative>. And you kind of shut down and that's your brain's way of surviving it.

Lucas:

Yeah. So when you're like, what Christie was just describing that is very normal mm-hmm <affirmative>. To experience. And it's also like, it's not your fault that it's happening. This is a, this is a defense mechanism that our brains have developed mm-hmm <affirmative>. In order to deal with this and prevent it from happening again. There's even some cases where, I dunno if you've ever experie, I've experienced this mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, where like if I'm grieving the loss of somebody, and then I'm out in public, and then I'll see that person mm-hmm <affirmative>. Out in public mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I'll think it's them. Oh yeah. That's called, uh, bereavement hallucinations or grief. Hallucinations and cool. Yeah. Cool, cool, cool. Super cool. <laugh>. FYI It is not a sign of like serious mental illness or something. Yeah. It's a very normal phenomenon that happens with grief and it, you're not becoming psychotic. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. That's not what's happening. <laugh>. And, uh, trust me. 'cause I had to look it up <laugh>, uh,

Christy:

Because you really needed to.

Lucas:

I Needed to know,

Christy:

Validate himself that he was not.

Lucas:

<laugh>, that I was fine. Uh, <laugh>. But that is a, that is just something that can happen because of the intense emotional trauma that can occur.

Christy:

Oh yeah. I've, I've, I've had lots of people that have gone to funerals and they get really frustrated with themselves because they don't remember the funeral or they don't remember who was there or what songs were were sung or what, what was said in the message. And there it's like, it's just like, almost like it didn't happen because there's like probably some dissociation happening where it's like, if you were allowed yourself to fully be there in the minute, in the moment, you would just lose it. And it's like you have to get through a funeral and so your brain's like, this is what we have to do. And it like, prepares you, but sometimes people will just not have a memory of that.

Lucas:

Yeah. And I think, can we talk about funerals for a second? Because I think that there's a Oh, good. There's, well, there's a lot of judgments that go into that. Yeah. Where like people think that they have to do it a certain way in order for like it to be the correct way. Yeah. And people, like, we've been talking about grieve differently mm-hmm <affirmative>. So when it comes to, like, when it comes to a funeral, there's different people have different styles of funerals and all that, all of that. Um, but the biggest thing that I've noticed with my clients, my own personal, uh, stuff is like with open or closed caskets mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or even just, um, cremations. Yeah. People feeling like they have to go look at the body. Yeah. You don't No. If that's not helpful for me. No. Um, and but it is helpful for some people. Yep. And so if it is something that is helpful for you, go for it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. If it's something that's not helpful for you, do not feel pressured to do that.

Christy:

Yeah. No, I always say that <laugh> funerals are for the living. Yeah. Right. It's a, it's a, it's a way for you to find closure. And however you need to do that is how you need to do that. You don't even have to attend a funeral if that's not what you need. If that's not, if that's not benefiting you in any way. In some, in some, in some cases, it's worse for people to have to go to the funeral than to not. And in some cases where there aren't funerals, it's hard to find for some people to find closure when they don't have that. 'cause there's so many ways that people can celebrate life. Right. And so it's like, what do you need as a human? And how do you find it for, to, for you to find some sort of closure and be able to move through what you're, what you're experiencing.

Lucas:

Yeah. Because it doesn't matter necessarily how you do it as long as you're doing it. Yeah. And so what are some ways that people, that you've seen people avoid grieving?

Christy:

Well, um, there's a lot of not great ways. And I think a lot of that falls into like the alcohol and drug category where it's a real quick path to addiction when you have a loss that you aren't able to grieve effectively. And now you, and then 'cause you turn to that 'cause you're trying to numb everything because feeling it is uncomfortable or you don't know how to process it or you don't have somebody to process it with. Yeah. And so you just numb it and that doesn't work.

Lucas:

No. The thing about grief is a unique emotion, um, in that I find that there are some emotions that you could, like, you could push 'em down a little bit and they might like dissipate or go away after a while. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, grief is not one of those No, no. Grief is an emotion that if you push it down, it just stays there and it will come out. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. It's just a matter of how it does. Yeah. And whether or not it comes out controlled or appropriately. And I like air quotes appropriately. Yeah. And what I mean by that is like, if somebody who locks down their, their grief is going to potentially get really angry mm-hmm <affirmative>. Later, or maybe they might, um, lash out at people and that's your grief coming out mm-hmm <affirmative>. But it doesn't feel like grief anymore. Right. It, it, it has turned into something else, but it has to get out of you. Yep. Um, and I've seen, I mean, it can lead into other, uh, like it can lead into depression or anxiety or, uh, lots of other conditions. Yeah.

Christy:

Um, I also get this question a lot because people will also make themselves busy. They'll work through grief or they'll like do all these random like things just to keep them busy all of the time. And, and, and people are like, I'm just distracting if I, if I don't do that, then I just get sad. I'm like, yeah, that's not bad. Like we, we need to stop equating being sad with being bad, being sad is an absolutely okay. Healthy emotion to have. It's just, it's uncomfortable to experience it, it doesn't feel great. But if you don't allow yourself to have that, it's just, it doesn't go away. And so the question that I get asked all the time is like, what's the difference between, 'cause we use distractions as a healthy coping mechanism. Yeah. What's the difference between distractions and just keeping myself busy? Well, distractions are like, you gotta get through the workday, right?

Christy:

Yes. And so you have to find a way to like get your daily stuff done and until you have time to grieve <laugh>. Right? Yeah. And just, and, and keeping yourself busy all the time and not allowing you any time to grieve. That's the difference is like distractions just help you get through the stuff that you have to get through, but then you're allowing yourself to feel what you feel when you get home from the day or whatever the case may be. Making yourself busy all the time from sunup to sundown and not ever allowing yourself to have the time to sit and grieve. That is when it becomes a problem.

Lucas:

Right. It's okay to lock it down every now and again. Yeah. Temporarily. Yeah. So that you can get through the day. Yeah. I get it. As, uh, therapists, like, if I am grieving, I can't come to work and cry in front of my clients. That's not,

Christy:

They don't like that.

Lucas:

Yeah. It's not super professional. Yeah. So I lock it down while I'm here, but then when I go home, I have to let it happen. Yeah. And sometimes there's repercussions to that in that it can be a little more intense when you get home mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because it has been building up. Yeah. But we you have to do that.

Christy:

Yeah. Well, and I think even, I mean, we're talking about ourselves here, but the therapy's a very <laugh> interesting thing because you have to show up and be your best all of the time, regardless of what's going on in your, in your personal life. Yeah. We get really good at compartmentalizing. And I say this for 'cause I'm, I'm hoping that there are therapists that are listening to this. It's really, there's a part that you have to do that. Right. But you also have to open up the compartments. Right. Air 'em out, <laugh>, you gotta do that. Air 'em out. You do. Yeah. Because you, otherwise it's, and depending on what you're grieving Right. Sometimes if it's a really tragic loss or something that you feel really deeply, sometimes I have to put that off till Friday. Yeah. Because if I start opening that up on Monday, I'm sunk for Tuesday <laugh>. Right. And I gotta get through Tuesday too. And so, I mean, and that's just what works for me. But I have to, you have to schedule in your grieving time and when it's, and your, it's like your body kind of knows when it's safe to kinda let it go and then just kind of buckle up for Friday. But, but allow yourself to feel the emotions when it, when it works for you.

Lucas:

Right. And be honest with yourself about that. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Don't, you don't, it's, you already know that you're not in a good space mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it's okay to say that. Yes. Um, and it's okay to reach out to other people around you and say that you're not in a good space right now. Yes. Just that things are hard. Yeah. That doesn't mean you have to open the flood gates to them or anything, even though that might happen. Of course. Accidentally. But I think that it's really healthy when we grieve to have a community around us supporting us. Yeah. 'cause we don't have to be superheroes all day long.

Christy:

No. Can't be actually. Yeah. What are your thoughts on morbid humor?

Lucas:

Oh man. <laugh>. Um, it's funny. Uh, <laugh>. <laugh>, right. Uh, but it's a, i I think it can be a coping mechanism mm-hmm <affirmative>. To kind of get through the day Totally. Or to get through a moment and it's a distraction from how you really feel. Yeah. But, and I think that it's okay to an extent mm-hmm <affirmative>. As long as, again, we're not using it to avoid forever. Right. What's going on? But if you're hearing morbid humor from somebody and maybe like more than usual uhhuh or <laugh>, like Right. Uh, or just they don't normally do that and they, they're do like maybe just check in. Yeah. Because there's probably something going on that's that grief kind of coming out in a weird way. Yeah. In a more controlled but trying to be funny. I'm like half joking. Ha ha. Right. <laugh>.

Christy:

Well, it's like, it's so many people that really do use humor as a relatively effective tactic of getting through grief. And they're like, am I messed up? Am I messed up? Because I'm trying to like, make something funny out of this? And I'm like, no, you're not messed up. It's your, it's your way of trying to bring levity to a really crappy situation, which is fine from time to time. Right. Yeah. As long as you're allowing the other crappy stuff to also, you know, allow itself in

Lucas:

Yeah. This is a, so we like to use analogies and there's a lot of grief analogies, but one of my favorite ones, especially for kids when it comes to opening up like this is I, I like to have them picture a sponge. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. That got really wet mm-hmm <affirmative>. And when we don't want to get the wet on us, like that's the grief. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Okay. And it, it just, we don't like it. And so then what people do is they might put it in a container, and then when you put the sponge and you put it up in a container, that's better. I'm dry now. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Everything's fine. Except the contain the sponge turns disgusting <laugh>, it didn't go anywhere. Right. It's just now when we like moldy accidentally open up the cupboard, it's like, oh no. Yeah. What happened to it? And then eventually we need that container <laugh> and so then we pull it out, it's like, oh, this is way worse. Yeah. And then we have to like kind of like clean it off and 'cause we can't get rid of the sponge. Right. That's like us. And it's, so if we can just avoid that by talking through it and letting it out and getting a little wet from the sponge. Yeah. Like, it's gonna be a lot better than having to scrape off whatever mold is on there. Right. Disgustingness.

Christy:

Ew. And you know what's really cool about getting wet is that you can dry it off.

Lucas:

Exactly. Yeah.

Christy:

That's a, that's a fixable situation.

Lucas:

Right. <Laugh>? Absolutely.

Christy:

Gross sponge. It's just as disgusting. Actually.

Lucas:

It is really disgusting. Kids really like that analogy though. I bet they do. Yeah. Because they can really picture it then they're like, Ew.

Christy:

Yeah. Squeeze the sponge man.

Lucas:

Right. I was like, don't be a moldy sponge.

Christy:

<laugh> <laugh>. Don't be disgusting.

Lucas:

Right.

Christy:

Oh my Gosh.

Lucas:

Yeah. What are the, you, you already kind of alluded to this, but the five stages of grief,

Christy:

DABDA, that's, I I, that's the only way I've ever remembered it. Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance.

Lucas:

Nailed it. Do you know what the, like, the reason that that was made or like the context in which that was created for?

Christy:

You know, I probably should know this because I took grief and loss in graduate school 22 years ago. But you know what, Lucas <laugh>, why don't, why don't you, why don't you give us the refresher? 'cause of course, I know, of course I know.

Lucas:

Right. For everybody else. Um, so it's, it was made by Dr. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, um, I think in Swiss Switzerland. Um, but it was.

Christy:

Depends on where the umlaut is,

Lucas:

Right? Yes. Uh, 1969 for, uh, terminally ill patients dealing with death. And so I think that that puts a little bit more of a perspective on the, on DABDA Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, because it doesn't, it's not a perfect fit for all grief. And I've had some people be like, well, I'm like, I don't know. I don't really bargain mm-hmm <affirmative>. And that's because a lot of times you're gonna see more bargaining when it's like you're own like a, like a terminally ill patient. For example. But that being said, it is relevant to other forms of grieving as well. And I think it's important to understand that one, we put it in a nice little list mm-hmm <affirmative>. Of like one through five and like, it seems like it should just go in order. But it doesn't. And it, like, also, I, I, I like to draw it out and I'll draw arrows of like the way it goes and it's like back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. A lot. You might switch between depression and anger, like

Christy:

All the times.

Lucas:

50 billion times in a day. In a day. <laugh>. That was weird.

Christy:

<laugh> we're also dressed alike today. So I think it's just, it's just the vibe.

Lucas:

And yesterday,

Christy:

And yesterday, what is wrong with us?

Lucas:

I don't know. But we did not plan that. Uh, we need to stop doing this <laugh> <laugh>. So, uh, what are, when you grieve Christy, what are, what are some of the, of the five, what was, what's like the one or two that you do the most?

Christy:

I'm really good at being depressed about it. <laugh>, I'm like super good at it. Um, I also, depending on the nature of the loss, I can spend a lot of time in anger.

Lucas:

Oh yeah.

Christy:

Which is cute.

Lucas:

Uh, it's, yeah.

Christy:

Um, I don't love that, but it's really, it's really easy to get mad at the universe or at a god or at something that took something from you when it wasn't supposed to be taken from you. Supposed to be, you know, like, it just, it can get real mad about that.

Lucas:

Yeah. I relate to that a lot. I get angry, uh, a lot when I'm grieving at Same at the universe, just at the situation, whatever. It's just, I don't know, it's, it's just really like easy for me to go there. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I'll also flip into a depression every now and, but I spend a lot of time in anger.

Christy:

You know, the thing, the thing about grief in the form of a loss of, of any kind really, is that you don't have control over the loss. Right. You don't have control over how somebody dies. You don't have control over, if a relationship ends, you don't have control over it. Anger is the emotion that gives you the illusion of being in control. And so when, when you don't have control of anything around you, and there's all of these icky emotions probably that don't feel really good, it's easy to sit in anger because anger's easy.

Lucas:

Yeah, it's

Christy:

Anger's really easy and it gives you the illusion of being in control. But people don't realize that anger is actually the loss of control. If you are an angry person, you have lost control of your emotions. <laugh> mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right. And so it's like, I think it's, it's easy to sit in anger because yelling sometimes feels good, and being mad at something, sometimes feels way better than feeling sad about it.

Lucas:

Yeah. I, I think so.

Christy:

Yeah <laugh>. I also, some, and I don't know if this is like a weird form of denial, but there are times when I will forget that they're dead.

Lucas:

Oh, interesting.

Christy:

Yeah and then, and then you have a reminder and it's like, oh, they're not here. Or I'll go to text a friend and not realizing that they're not there anymore. It's like, what am I doing? Mm. Like, like is that just like wild denial or is that just, you know, you go so long with talking for someone for so long and then all of a sudden they're not there?

Lucas:

Yeah, I mean it's, and

Christy:

It's just like muscle memory.

Lucas:

I would think so. Yeah.

Christy:

Maybe a little bit of both. I don't know.

Lucas:

I don't know. That's interesting. I wonder if there's like a, a name for that.

Christy:

I don't know.

Lucas:

I'm, I've heard of people doing that before.

Christy:

Yeah. So I don't know if it's denial. 'cause it's not like I'm, I don't deny the deaths, but you just kind of go to call somebody and it's like, oh crap.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

They're not there.

Lucas:

Well, and when you're, we've talked about memory issues when. Grieving. So maybe it's just as simple as that, but maybe there's a bigger thing going on there. Have you ever had people get, I experience this a lot with some of my clients, but people who, when they're getting through their grief, they feel guilty that they're having positive emotions again,

Christy:

That, or that they're not honoring the memory of somebody by main maintaining their sadness. Yeah. There's a lot of guilt in that. It kind of goes to how you should feel. And I, and I think most of the time it's very rare that there's somebody who dies and they're like, I hope they're miserable forever.

Lucas:

Right <laugh>,

Christy:

You know, like, I don't think, I don't think that they would want, most people wouldn't want that for you. And so there's like, there's a lot of really difficult emotions that come with that. There's Frank Turner, I'm obsessed with him. He's a little folk musician from England, and I love him dearly. But there's a song that he has is called Long Live the Queen. And one of the lyrics is, you'll live to dance. We'll live to dance another day. It's just now we have to dance for the both of us. And so I think about that often where it's like, I need to not just dance for me, but I get to dance for somebody else too. And that there's joy in that. And that's, and that's okay. It's not, it's not a bad emotion. You're not gonna go through the rest of your life and never have a happy moment again. And that doesn't, that doesn't have anything to do with the fact that the person that you love is no longer here. It doesn't mean that it doesn't mean anything to you. It doesn't mean that you've become heartless if you, if you go on and live your life in the face of grief.

Lucas:

Yeah. That was, that was really beautiful actually. <laugh>

Christy:

Thanks, Lucas. <laugh>.

Lucas:

I really like that. Um, so when we talk about like managing or getting through your grief mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, uh, throw another analogy at everybody. Um, but, so we talk about grief as being like waves mm-hmm <affirmative>. And there's this, there's this wave pool down in Disney, Disney World or whatever that one of those, there's a bunch of different water parks or whatever. But anyways, there's, if you've ever been in a wave pool, a lot of times it's just, you're sitting in a pool, it's calm, and then all of a sudden they start making waves. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. But the one that I'm talking about, it, it only makes one wave at a time. And it, it is a big one. Uhhuh. <affirmative>. Um, and I, when I think about grief, I think about that because, so when you're in a wave pool, there's, if you've ever been in one, there's a group of people that are just kind of floating along and there's other people who are like trying to fight the waves.

Lucas:

And then there's other people who are just kinda, uh, hanging out at the, at the other end or the shallow end. So the people who are fighting the wave, they, it takes a ton of physical energy mm-hmm <affirmative>. And they are unsuccessful. They're still getting pushed back. They can't, you can't fight it. It's a huge amount of water that's coming at you, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then on the flip side, it's a funny story. Now, I went, I wanted to take a break, and so then I went to the shallow end of things and I was just gonna sit there and I sat down in the water thinking, oh, the wave's gonna be like, not as bad here. Like, I can sit down and I sat down even next to a lifeguard. Oh. And this, the wave comes and I'm just watching it, watching it, watching it, and all of a sudden it hits me and I just tumble everywhere, like slammed my knee on the ground. Like it was bad.

Christy:

Oh my, You didn't think to move?

Lucas:

No, I don't know what I was thinking at that time. But I was thinking, I was thinking, I'm gonna make a really good analogy. <laugh>, uh, <laugh>. Uh, but grief is like that. So if you, if you fight it, you're gonna end up losing, you might not move as far, or maybe it seems like you are preventing something, but you're, it might turn like come out of you sideways like we talked about. With like anger and stuff like that. On the flip side, if you just let the wave hit you and not do anything mm-hmm <affirmative>. It's gonna take control of you. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it's going to whip you around and make you hit your knee on the floor. <laugh>, uh, and a lifeguard laugh at you.

Christy:

Oh no.

Lucas:

Um, and then in the middle there, if we ride the wave mm-hmm <affirmative>. We have control of what's going on and the direction that we are going, while we are still allowing the wave to happen mm-hmm <affirmative>. And that's, that's the goal.

Christy:

Yeah.

Lucas:

That we're, we're talking about here when we talk about managing your grief mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, it, we're not trying to prevent it from occurring. We're not just letting it take control. We are riding the wave. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so what are some ways that you like to teach people on how to ride that wave? Wave?

Christy:

I've found that journaling, even for people who don't necessarily like to journal about their emotions and just getting it out somewhere is so helpful. And I think part of that is because at some point people feel like they're a burden when they keep talking about their loss. And, and they're not. I mean, I think that that is a misconception of most people is like, they, they, they don't want to keep talking about the same thing, even though that's what, that's where they're at in their life. And so then, so then they just don't talk. And that's not great. But like writing it down is a way for them to feel like they're not a burden, even though they're not. But if that's a feeling, they can write it down and, and still experience it and still validate how they're feeling and why they're feeling it. And almost keep like a grief journal, which I think has been really helpful for a lot of people.

Lucas:

Yeah. On the, on the same style of like writing things. Some people have found it really helpful and cathartic to write a letter mm-hmm <affirmative>. To whatever it is that you're grieving. It could be like a future version of you. Maybe it's past version of you. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Maybe it's the person that you lost. You can get really creative with that. But just getting just free writing mm-hmm <affirmative>. Where you just like, let whatever comes to your mind come to your mind and you just let her out. A lot of people I've had do that have found a lot of healing from doing that.

Christy:

I also, there's, there's this fear I get a lot from people that they're going to forget the person, that they're gonna forget what they smelled like or, or how they made them feel or things that they did. And so if it's, I always tell people, write down, write down everything you remember about that person. Write down why you loved them so much. Write, write down the things that they did that made you feel special. Because over time some of those things can become more difficult memories to tap into, but if you have it right, it's fresh and you have it all, it's like, oh, I do remember like that part of them things that you don't wanna forget. Write 'em down.

Lucas:

Yeah. Another thing, uh, talking it out with people mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like flip side of journaling, talking it out with somebody who you know, is going to be supportive and validating. Mm-hmm. That's very important. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, or talking with a therapist about that. And a really, one of my favorite ways to get people to do this is just let's talk about happy stories. Let's, what, what is something that makes you laugh? What's your favorite part about that person? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And for some reason when we think about, when we start talking about that people stop crying. And we start almost, we're laughing. Right. And like, it, it just feels better to remember the person in a more positive way than mm-hmm <affirmative>. Focusing on what you've lost.

Christy:

Right. I think another thing is going through pictures and going through pictures of them as they were when they were happy and healthy. 'cause it's, it's easy to look at, especially like if there's end of life photos or if someone was sick or going through an illness. Some of the pictures that you have from the last year of their life maybe are for sure invaluable, but you kind of wanna remember them as they were when they were living and not as they were dying. And I think it's difficult for, there's a lot of guilt that comes along with long illness too, because it is hard to be with people who aren't the version of the person that you know them to be. Does that make sense? And so it's like a lot of times people will avoid seeing it 'cause it's just too hard for them, even though the person who's dying needs them there. Like they, they need to have you there. And even if it's hard, it's the right thing to do. Right. But there, there is just, it, it's, it's hard. It's hard to be with someone and they aren't the version that you think that, that you, that you know them to be. It's not the memory that of the person that you, that you're gonna want to remember.

Lucas:

Yeah. That makes me think of Alzheimer's.

Christy:

Yeah. Oh, that's a tough one.

Lucas:

Yeah, that one's really hard. Yeah. But it's, it they don't even maybe even remember mm-hmm <affirmative>. You or like where they're at and it's just, that's not the person that you, you know and love. And it's just grieving that can be really hard. Or being around them can be really hard and cause grieving mm-hmm <affirmative>. And know that that's okay. And we can still be there for them.

Christy:

Right. Which brings up probably kind of a touchy subject, but there is sometimes a relief when someone passes on and there is a tremendous amount of guilt that people feel if they feel relief when that person passes, it's okay to feel that way.

Lucas:

It is. You're not doing anything wrong.

Christy:

No. You're not doing anything wrong.

Lucas:

You're not a bad person.

Christy:

And, and if anybody's done caretaking for someone who's very ill, um, it is exhausting and it is very, very difficult. Yeah. And it's, there's just a lot that goes into that. And so those emotions are very, very, very complicated. And so I talk to somebody. Find a therapist and, and talk to somebody about that. 'cause it doesn't make you a bad person. It doesn't mean that you didn't love this person with your whole heart and soul. It just means that there's some relief that maybe comes with somebody passing on.

Lucas:

Yeah. And if you have a, uh, for lack of a better phrase, a unique grieving situation mm-hmm <affirmative>. That not a whole lot of people have been through. Like, I think a lot of people, I would say, I think I'm comfortable saying the majority of people have experienced like a grandparent dying mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or something like that. And so, but like if for example, uh, if you've experienced your own child dying, that's not a normal thing. That's not how it's supposed to work. And it can be very invalidating to talk to people who have never experienced that. And so there are support groups out there for all sorts of kind of grieving situations. And it's really important that you connect with people who can understand that because there is no textbook on that. There's no way that, um, I would be able to understand necessarily what you've gone through because I haven't been through anything like that. And even if I have been through it, your situation is unique,

Christy:

100% different.

Lucas:

So it's really important to connect with people that are validating to you and that are supporting you in that. And if you're feeling invalidated, that's not your fault. Like, it's not that you are doing something wrong. You need to find a group or some people that can help you with that.

Christy:

Yeah. You're, you're never alone. And I think that especially if, especially if it's like a one, like a weird, like a unique death situation, it's very easy to feel isolated and like you're on an island and that nobody can understand you. And you know what, no one can. But people can support you and they can validate you. No one's ever going to understand the enormity of that loss. Ever.

Lucas:

And another example of, 'cause um, we're talking a lot about losing a person, but another situation with grief would be some sort of chronic illness. Yeah. And I, I work with a couple of people that have experienced chronic illness and I also struggle with chronic illness as well mm-hmm <affirmative>. But it is a very isolating experience and it feels like nobody understands. And they don't. <laugh> except for people who have been in it. Right. And so it is important to that I found that very healing to talk to people who have gone through what I've gone through, knowing that I'm not alone, knowing that my experiences aren't weird mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or that I'm not overreacting to something or whatever. Right. And we can only get that by talking to other people. And, and getting those thoughts and emotions out.

Christy:

Yep. Well, and when you talk about that too, you also, if it's a chronic illness or something, whatever, there's a loss with also not being the person in your head that you thought that you were gonna be. Like if you were an athlete and you, something happens to one of your limbs and you can no longer do any of those things. Like that's a huge part of your identity that's taken from you. That's a huge loss that people don't always understand or frame it in that way. Like you've, you've lost who you are because of what X, Y, and Z, whatever it might be. And that is 100% something that you have to grieve and work through and figure out what to do with

Lucas:

Another challenge I see. Uh, is especially with parents and how to grieve around kids mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I think there's a stigma when it comes to parents, uh, or, and I think a lot of times it's self like they put on it themselves where like they have to be strong for the family. Mm-hmm. And if they grieve in front of the children, that that's gonna make things way worse for the kids. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I want to tell you that that's false. And it is very important that you grieve in front of your children because we need to role model what that looks like. Otherwise, I've, I mean, how many times have you heard, I've never seen my dad cry.

Christy:

All the time.

Lucas:

And like it's all the time. And so I wanna encourage you, especially dads mm-hmm <affirmative>. Please grieve in front of your family. So that you can teach them that that is okay. Because when you don't do that, they think that I just need to be strong too. And we don't, that's not healthy.

Christy:

The amount of families I've had in my office where the parents are like, well, we, we don't wanna cry in front of the kids because we don't want them to worry about us. And then the kids come in and they're like, I don't wanna cry in front of my parents 'cause I don't want them to worry about me. It's like, how about we just all cry together? Because you're all experiencing a loss. Nobody has to be strong for anyone.

Lucas:

Right.

Christy:

Just grief.

Lucas:

Just, you're so healthy, you're all, you're all feeling it, so just feel it. Uh, it's really important that you role model that and then talking with your children about what's going on. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right. They're gonna have a lot of questions depending on what age they're in and maybe they don't understand things and, and so they're gonna ask you questions, just be honest with them and developmentally appropriate, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. But, and it's also okay to say that you don't know the answer.

Christy:

Yep, yeah.

Lucas:

You don't gotta make anything up or feel pressured to come up with something. You can say you don't know because you, you might not.

Christy:

No. It's that saying, I don't know, is like my favorite thing ever because it's okay to say it. I don't know where DABA came from. Lucas <laugh>. And that's fine. Like, I don't,

Lucas:

I wasn't judging you.

Christy:

I don't have to know everything. Right. <laugh> like, you don't, you don't have to know everything. It's always okay to say, I don't know. No one's like, oh my gosh, you stupid to idiot <laugh>. It's just not a thing. I also think that this is my own theory that is could be wrong or could be not wrong.

Lucas:

I'm so excited for this.

Christy:

I know. Well, I think when, when there's a loss, right? They're the people that grieve right away. Like they are, they have their emotions on their sleeve. They let it all go. They are what I think would be considered traditional grieving. Right? And then there are the people that make sure everybody else gets through their own grief before they even start their own grieving. And so it's like, and the the bad thing about that is that right when it happens, there's a lot of support. There's a lot of outpouring, there's a lot of meals and whatever. There's a lot of people checking in on you and seeing how you are. And then as the weeks go on, it dwindles away. And so this person who's been making sure everybody else gets through their grief six weeks later is like, oh no, here comes.

Lucas:

It's arrived.

Christy:

I, I'm at the, I'm at the, I'm in the, I'm in the wave pool. And, and I'm going to get crashed on. And it, it's at, but now there aren't the people that are around and there's not people that are checking in with you and bringing you meals while you're going through like the thick of your grief. You know? And that's a, again, a very isolating place to be. And everyone's like, why are you grieving now? And that's a totally normal thing to do. For people to have delayed grief. If you're find yourself in that situation, you have to reach out to your people and say, I am having a time. Like I, it's finally hitting me like I'm going through a rough time. 'cause otherwise you're, you're very alone and you're really sad. And that's a very dangerous place to be.

Lucas:

I also find that people who are delayed grievers are the least likely to reach out when it actually hits.

Christy:

Yes. Because they think that everyone else should think that they're over it.

Lucas:

Right. Because they played this role of being like this strong, like, you know, everything's gonna be okay. Like yeah,

Christy:

They're taking it so well,

Lucas:

Right. They're, they're being so positive and whatever, and then all of a sudden it hits and it's like, oh, I can't be that person. I need to push that away and just deal with this solo. It's, that's the wrong move.

Christy:

It is the, it is the wrong move. Whenever you're feeling anything about anything, you need to reach out to people and be like, I'm having a hard time. I was talking on the radio the other day with Amy and JJ and we were talking about the difference between trauma dumping and like processing through something.

Lucas:

Oh, yeah.

Christy:

Which is 'cause a lot of people just be like, this is a trauma dump. And I was like, you know, here's the thing. If, if I am, if I go up and I start trauma dumping to someone who I don't have a connection with. Right. And I'm like, blah, blah, blah. And it's just, it's not appropriate to the relationship. It's not appropriate to the situation That is not necessarily healthy. If I'm talking with my friend, if I go in and talk to Lucas, who we've been friends for a long time. And I'm, and I'm talking to him about what I'm going through, that's an appropriate person. That's an appropriate relationship. Like he's not going to judge me ever if I come in and I'm like, I'm having a bad day. <laugh>. Like things are, things are rough today. And and that's not trauma dumping, that's processing through it with a friend. They're very different things.

Lucas:

Very, very different. And so it's really, really important. I think we've said this a million times or by now, but reach out to people. Do not do this alone. You don't have to. And you shouldn't. Yeah. Do it alone. It's not healthy to do it alone. And if you don't feel comfortable talking to family or whatever, come talk to us.

Christy:

Yeah. We'll talk to you all. We'll talk to anybody all the time.

Lucas:

Right. Uh, reach out to a therapist, a professional, 'cause we can help you. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Not feel this way anymore. You don't have to do this.

Christy:

No you don't.

Lucas:

We always want to encourage you to ask the question. Is it just me? You're likely not alone. And there is always a way to help. If anything we've talked about today resonates with you, please reach out.

Christy:

Do you have a topic you'd like us to talk about? Message us. We would love to hear from you. Our email is, is it just me@dakotaranch.org? Or you can text us DMS Call Doug at the front desk. He'll get it. He'll get us a message. Right. Doug <laugh>.

Lucas:

He nodded. Yes. Yes. Uh,

Christy:

He was in agreement.

Lucas:

And don't forget to share us with your family and friends.

Announcer:

Thanks for listening to today's episode of Is It Just Me? To learn more or make an appointment for psychiatric or mental health services at Dakota Family Services, go to dakotafamilyservices.org or call 1 800 2 0 1 64 95.

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