About the Hosts

Christy Wilkie provides therapy for children and adolescents, ages 5-25, who have complex behavioral health issues. She combines her extensive clinical expertise with a belief in kids, and has a unique ability to find and develop their strengths. She works hard to be an ideal therapist for her clients, doing what is best to fit their needs.

Lucas Mitzel provides therapy for children, adolescents, and adults, ages 5 - 30. He believes building relationships with clients is the most important piece of successful therapy. He loves what he does because it allows him to walk next to people he would never have met had he chosen a different profession, as they work to make amazing life changes. He has the honor of meeting people at their worst, all while watching them grow into the people they’ve always wanted to be.

Transcript
Is Confronting Conflict Hard?

Featuring Christy Wilkie, LCSW, and Lucas Mitzel, LCSW ,Dakota Family Services.

Announcer:

This episode of, Is It Just Me, is brought to you by Dakota Family Services, your trusted partner in mental and behavioral health, whether you need in-person or virtual care. The team of professionals at Dakota Family Services is dedicated to supporting children, adolescents, and adults in their journey to better mental health.

Christy:

Disrupting life patterns and life routines that aren't serving you.

Lucas:

It's how we feel that keeps us going.

Christy:

You can be a masterpiece in a work of art all at the same time.

Lucas:

Hey everyone, I'm Lucas. And I'm Christy. And you're listening to the, Is It Just Me podcast.

Christy:

Where we aim to provide education, decrease the stigma, and expel some myths around mental health.

Lucas:

Christy, is it just me or is conflict really hard?

Christy:

I am terrible at conflict.

Lucas:

Really?

Christy:

My hands are sweating <laugh>. Like I am.

Lucas:

Just talking about it.

Christy:

Yes. I am not good at confrontation. I'm not good with conflict. I'm a middle child.

Lucas:

Oh. That explains everything.

Christy:

So I am, I am very much a mediator of all things. And making sure that everything goes according to plan. So yes. <laugh>, that's, to answer your question, conflict is terrible.

Lucas:

I, I mean, there's a million reasons why conflict is hard, but like, what do you think is the biggest thing for you? Especially 'cause conflict is so hard for you.

Christy:

I think for me, if I'm really thinking about it, I really don't want to hurt anybody's feelings or make them feel like they've hurt mine.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

Which is really stupid when I'm saying it out loud, kind of.

Lucas:

I don't think so. <laugh>.

Christy:

Thanks.

Lucas:

I don't think that's stupid.

Christy:

It's the nicest thing you've ever said to me.

Lucas:

I know. We're working on that.

Christy:

Um, yeah. I think it's this feeling of like, advocating for yourself is hard, right?

Lucas:

Yeah. Yeah.

Christy:

And so if, like, if somebody hurts my feelings or it's easy for me to just justify it in my head to be like, they didn't really mean that, like, that they couldn't have really, they were having a bad day. Instead of being able to say, you know, when you said that the other day, it really did hurt my feelings. 'cause I don't want you to feel bad. For me feeling bad. I would rather just me feel bad and not you feel bad. 'cause now we all feel bad. <laugh>. And that's so uncomfortable for me, I think it's like, and I am, despite what some people may think, I am a very empathetic person, and like other people's emotions matter almost more to me than my own, which is something that I'm working on, because that's not necessarily healthy.

Lucas:

But also makes sense with the job that you're in.

Christy:

Yeah. Right. Right, right, right. So it is, it's, it's just taking everybody else's emotions into consideration, but also realizing that mine's valid.

Lucas:

Right. Yeah. That's a, it's a really important balance to have. I am also quite the people pleaser. Yeah. Weird <laugh>. Um, but instead of stealing your answer, I would say that sometimes conflict is really hard because if I am incorrect about something or if I did whatever, like if I accidentally offended, even though I maybe don't think I did, like that says something about me then. Whether it's I'm incompetent or I am unkind or mm-hmm <affirmative>. Whatever that is, and that feels really uncomfortable. So then I'm, there might be conflict from that because I'm trying to defend myself rather than just apologizing for hurting the person or getting something incorrect.

Christy:

Right. I think there's also, because we're sensitive people, I think that in my head sometimes I think things that really aren't conflict are so like, like maybe even more like confrontation or advocating for myself is not necessarily conflict, but in my head I'm like preparing for battle. Like, like a stupid example would be like, if I felt like I needed a raise, right? Like, that shouldn't be a conflict. Like my brain shouldn't see that as a conflict, but I'm, I'm just going in assuming that I'm going to have a conflict because we're going to disagree rather than just like having a conversation about it and being assertive. And you're communication. It doesn't, it doesn't ha necessarily have to be conflict, but in, but my head like, prepares it prepares my body for that.

Lucas:

Well I think the,

Christy:

Does that make sense?

Lucas:

Yeah. Well, I, it makes sense to me. And I think a piece of that is 'cause the, the word confrontation or confront is such a, just a gross word. When it doesn't have to be like, anytime that we confront people all day long. That's like our job.

Christy:

That's easy. <laugh> Well, no, it's not, it's not easy. But when I feel like I'm doing a good thing I'm doing so.

Lucas:

Yeah. And it's, you're not doing it. You're not confronting somebody for your own personal stuff. You're confronting them to help them. Right? So that is a lot easier. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. But confrontation doesn't have to be something where like, that ends in a conflict. It, it can be something that like even just saying like, oh, you missed your turn here. Like you confronted them about a, about a mistake there, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Not a big deal. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Christy:

It doesn't have to be a big <laugh>.

Lucas:

It doesn't have to be. That's fair. Or, yeah. I mean, there's a million examples of how that, that could play out. But it's, when we think about confronting somebody, I think that we start to get really, really anxious because of the possibility of a conflict. Conflict occurring. Um, and so then a lot of people just like, like you and I have described already, we, we kind of just like let it go. Or like, just don't say anything. And then things build up and we get what's called resentment.

Christy:

Yep. Yep. We do <laugh>. Yep. And then, and then it's, and then it's something that's usually really stupid that sets it off. It's like, why are we arguing about the color of your pen?

Lucas:

Because it's not about the pen.

Christy:

Cause it's not, this pen is blue <laugh> <laugh>. It's, it's not about the pen. It's about the 12 other things that were in the relationship before that you just chose to not confront.

Lucas:

Right. Another thing that can get in the way, uh, is like, I'm, I'm really competitive.

Christy:

What?

Lucas:

Right. Um,

Christy:

You are just blowing minds today.

Lucas:

I like to win <laugh>. Like when I won fantasy football and you lost.

Christy:

Oh my God. I will. I didn't just lose

Lucas:

You got last place.

Christy:

I got last place.

Lucas:

It's great. Um, um,

Christy:

He, he hasn't said anything about it.

Lucas:

Nope. <laugh>. Nope. This is my first time bragging about it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. <laugh>. Uh, and it's important that whenever we're having a conflict, ev 'cause we can be competitive, is that we focus on solving the problem rather than winning the problem. Um, because nobody feels good after a big fight, even if you were right. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. It doesn't, that doesn't change anything. Like, feelings are still hurt. And so when we focus on winning, we aren't taking care of ourselves or that person mm-hmm <affirmative>. And oftentimes we leave that situation with it unresolved with people feeling worse than when it started mm-hmm <affirmative>. And things typically getting way outta hand.

Christy:

Right. Well, and the thing about that is that I've been in this situation because I also tend to be on the competitive side, despite me losing tragically.

Lucas:

You can be competitive and bad at what you're doing.

Christy:

<laugh>. That's that's very true. Um, oh my god. Now I've just like derailed my thought. But I've been in this, in this, in a conversation where you are in a conflict. Right. You're having a debate and you realize at some point that you're wrong.

Lucas:

Oh man.

Christy:

And you just can't go back. <laugh> like, it's like I know that I am not right, but I have put 15 minutes into this fight, <laugh>. And I am, and now I'm, I can't, I can't concede. And so I think that that's a huge skill mm-hmm <affirmative>. To know when, like how to, how to have conflict fairly or like, you know, when you realize that the other person is actually making a pretty valid point to say, actually that's a pretty valid point. I can get that. And learning to have a little humility. It's not, it's not about winning, it's about finding the truth.

Lucas:

Yep.

Christy:

But that's hard.

Lucas:

That is so hard. I it is funny you said that because I just saw, um, a meme the other day where it was like that moment where you're in an argument and you realize you lost, but then you somehow convinced them you're still Right. And then you don't know what to do.

Christy:

Right. And then, and sometimes, I mean, I've done this.

Lucas:

I shouldn't say, let me rephrase. Sorry. I said lost when you realize that you were wrong. <laugh>. See, I did it.

Christy:

You did. This is, that's terrible, right? It's not about winning and losing. And I think that is the thing about conflict is that it needs to be more about resolving than winning and losing. And if you've listened to our dialectic podcast before, two opposite things can be true at the same time, everybody's reality is different in the way that you perceive a situation. The way I perceive a situation is different. It doesn't mean that either one of us are necessarily wrong. It just means that we perceived the situation differently. And that's what we call agreeing to disagree sometimes. And not in a passive aggressive way. Just like, okay. I, I validate that your experiences, how you saw it, and you need to validate help. You don't need to, nobody needs to do anything. But it would be nice if you would validate that my experience is my experience, and then we can move on.

Lucas:

Yeah. This is why it's so, uh, people get so lost in the circumstances mm-hmm <affirmative>. Whatever it is that they're arguing about. And what I mean by circumstances is like the facts or what happened exactly. And getting that to be super accurate, what we need to be focusing on is the feelings that are surrounding the conflict or surrounding what happened. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. It doesn't matter necessarily what happened mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because number one, human memory is flawed. And so if we are talking about something.

Christy:

Yours maybe is <laugh>.

Lucas:

Yeah. Okay. Uh, and so if we're talking about something, I might have some of my facts mixed up mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or I might have something where I misperceived whatever. Right. And so then I'm, I'm saying that this and this and this happened when maybe that wasn't totally accurate, but that's just how I perceived it. And then we'll say, my wife is saying, no, that's not how that happened. And now we're arguing about details that don't really matter. When what really mattered was you hurt my feelings. And that's what needs to be resolved.

Christy:

Right. And that's, we probably talked about this somewhere in our relationship podcast too, where it's like keeping the score where like, you know, you were wrong and, and I was, it's like, we're not, why are we, it's if I confront you on something that you did stupid. And then I'm like, well, remember that time two days ago when you did that, that's the same thing that you're arguing about me about. And it's like taking all of these past issues and bringing it into the new one. And then you're just like, you need to isolate the issue that you're currently talking about. And not bring everything else back into it.

Lucas:

Right. It's called, uh, or like, what about iss? What about this? What about this? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. That's not helpful. Um, and it's likely unrelated to what you're even talking about. You can talk about those things, but we should probably stay focused on this one subject first. And then we can circle back to that. And that if you're doing that, that probably says that those conflicts weren't resolved or never talked about. And that's not healthy.

Christy:

No. Because then you come as a, as a, if you're in a loving relationship, most of the time we don't want our partners upset with us. Like we, we don't want them to feel as, we want them to feel safe, secure, loved at all times. In a healthy relationship. And so if you get into this relationship and then you're bringing, or this conflict, and then you're bringing up things that happened two weeks ago that you never told me about and you've just been stewing on them, and, and I could have done something to help maybe resolve that or clarify something that was maybe misperceived, you've been carrying that around for two weeks. I feel awful that I said something that you've been carrying around for that long without you saying something.

Lucas:

Right.

Christy:

Like, that's not cool

Lucas:

<laugh>. Right. But like, if you've been told something like that and it's like, I didn't know that that bothered you mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like I could have said sorry and changed. Right. Like that, that sucks to know that you've been doing that, that I've been doing that to you for two weeks. And it's been bothering this whole time when I could have just easily not done that. But so then what are, what are some ways or, or skills or things that you tell people that help get through conflict or confront people in a healthy manner? Like mm-hmm <affirmative>. What do you got?

Christy:

First? I, I think it's always good to take, take the temperature of your body at the time and like, are you in a space to have a conversation that might be difficult because it doesn't have to be conflictual. And I, I say this 97,000 times a week, the, the second somebody raises their voice, everybody stops listening.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

And so if you're going, if you want to resolve a conflict and not go at it like we're winning or losing, like you, you have to be in a space to be able to emotionally handle that conversation. Otherwise it ends up getting heated and nobody listens for one, two, put your listening ears on mm-hmm <affirmative>. And not just, and not just think about retorts in your head while they're talking to you, but listening actively to what that person is saying. And not coming up with comebacks while they're talking about it. Making bullet points to be like, well, I'm gonna refute what you said with this. I'm gonna refute what you said with that. Then I think it's really important to validate the other person. 'cause their experience is valid. Whether, whether it's different than yours or not. Like, however they perceived it as valid to be like, okay, I hear what you say, I, and this is how I saw it, and so I can see why we're not agreeing on something because your experience was very different than mine, but validating that theirs is real. And then finding a way to resolve it and then moving on to like the apology part of that, which is a whole different skill. But finding a way to communicate respectfully with anybody, whether it's a boss, a friend, a spouse, your children, finding a positive way in a calm way to have a hard conversation is really hard. But it's the most effective way to do it.

Lucas:

Yeah. You're talking about, um, so in, in DBT, we have this module we call them, but uh, it's called interpersonal effectiveness. And that's, how you build, maintain relationships or getting what you need from people without like blowing the relationship up. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And a big piece of that is how to handle conflict or how to confront people mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because oftentimes people who struggle with this, they don't confront in the most healthy manner or they don't manage their conflict super well. So there's, you're we're describing all of these steps when you were doing that, the first DBT, first of all, well, therapy in general, we'd love acronyms.

Christy:

We do.

Lucas:

Um, <laugh>, it just helps us remember stuff. But there's a ton of acronyms in DBT. So I'm gonna go through a couple of them. Um,

Christy:

DBT?

Lucas:

Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, <laugh>

Christy:

Just saying.

Lucas:

<laugh>. And so the, they're a little, they sound strange when I first say em. Hold the judgment if you can, we'll go through 'em. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So the first one is, dear man, this is just interesting how we come up with these.

Christy:

Just dear people.

Lucas:

Right. So the first thing, and this is how you like phrase something. Or how you, how you say it. So the D stands for describe, so describing what you're asking for, what you need, the E is stands for emotions. So we talk about how this thing is making you feel. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Then the third A is being assertive. Now I like to pause here because I like to think of assertive kind of like on a spectrum. Of like, on one extreme we have passive, the other extreme, we have aggressive passive is where we aren't, we're kind of just doormats.

Christy:

Doormats <laugh>.

Lucas:

We like, like that was funny. Uh, we kind of just like let people walk all over us. We don't really confront anybody. We just let things happen to us. On the flip side, aggressive is we are way more concerned with the objective or getting what we need rather than focusing on the relationship. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Whereas again, being passive is focused way more on the relationship than it is the objective. Assertive is being in the middle. And there's this little bubble of self-respect that goes around there because you might shift to be slightly more aggressive, but still in the assertive range or slightly more passive. But in the assertive range, an example I like to give is, one day my son, he was, we were in the car driving home and he's like, daddy, look, there's dinosaurs chasing us <laugh>. And I'm like, what? There's no dinosaurs chasing us. And he got really upset with me. He's like, daddy, there are dinosaurs chasing us. And I was like, okay. So now I had a choice. Do I

Christy:

Feed into the delusion <laugh>?

Lucas:

Do I argue with a, at the time, 2-year-old about whether or not there's dinosaurs chasing us? And just be like more focused on the objective of like the truth. Mm-hmm. Or do I focus more on the relationship and just be like, oh, okay. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. You're just being silly. That's fine. And I chose to focus more on the relationship and let it go. And it was fine. Whereas on the flip side, if my son is wanting to like, let's say run into the street mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, I'm probably gonna be more on the aggressive side because my objective would be to keep him safe. Right. Now I'm not gonna be aggressive. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. But it's just be staying in that bubble of self-respect. 'cause if we go outside of that, I'm not gonna feel good about myself. If I go, so if I'm too passive, I'm definitely not gonna feel good. 'cause then he's gonna run into the street.

Christy:

We don't need that.

Lucas:

Right. And too aggressive might be like, I grab him too hard or I yell, or something like that. And that's not gonna feel good either. So assertive is different for every situation, but that's kind of a little rundown of the difference between all of them.

Christy:

Bubble

Lucas:

Yes. Bubble of self-respect.

Christy:

Got it. Put it my trapper keeper.

Lucas:

There you go. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Thank you. <laugh>. Oh my goodness. You just derailed my thoughts. Thank, this is why I take notes people.

Christy:

I know. I know.

Lucas:

Um, okay, next one is reinforced. And this one is a challenging one because, uh, when we're asking for things or wanting, uh, something from someone, you want to tell them why it would benefit them. And this isn't always going to be beneficial or like necessary in every case. But it can be really helpful. So like an example would be like, Hey, it would really mean a lot to me, or be really important to me if you helped me out with this thing at work. Um, now what I'm telling them is that they are, they're gonna benefit from that because I'm giving them my appreciation. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and that will boost our relationship. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right? So they're gonna benefit from that, that sort of thing. Next one is to be mindful, which is, we've talked about this one already, which you stay focused on what you're talking about. Act confident. Notice how it doesn't say be confident.

Christy:

That's the A?

Lucas:

That's Yes. That's the A the in man. Act confident. It's not be confident. You can, you can be unconfident and not show it. And that's like body language, right? Um, and then lastly is negotiate. So that's, you gotta give a little, take a little, give a little, give a little, take a little whatever, however you that.

Christy:

Which is also a skill actually.

Lucas:

Yeah. Now in conflict, you're not necessarily gonna use all of these skills, but it's describe using your emotions, being assertive. Um, being mindful. Confident, negotiate. Like you, at some point you're gonna probably use them in a conflict.

Christy:

Right. Yeah.

Lucas:

So the next ones are, um, give fast. And this is just like how you do it. So give is being gentle, acting interested in the, which is strange 'cause it's an A and it's give, it's supposed to be interested. It's whatever. They just square peg, round hole. <laugh>.

Christy:

So preach in a little bit.

Lucas:

Uh Yep. Being gentle acting, interested in what they're saying to you. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, Christy is already talking about this stuff. Validating, using an easy manner. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, so like a good tip when you're having a conflict, uh, is to sit down. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Standing shows a little bit of aggression mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it makes people a little bit more defensive. And when you're defensive, you're not listening. Fast is how you stay within your bubble of self-respect. So this is being fair to yourself and other people when you're talking to them up. Uh, not apolo over apologizing. 'cause we'll talk about that in a second.

Christy:

Not over apologizing?

Lucas:

Right.

Christy:

Okay.

Lucas:

And sticking to your values and being truthful. When we don't do those things, we tend to go outside of our bubble of self-respect, and we don't feel good about that. And that's just not great.

Christy:

In the bubble.

Lucas:

We gotta stay in the bubble of self-respect. <laugh>. Yes. So with that little rundown mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, I think that one of the big ones that people forget in or just don't do when they're having a conflict is the validation part.

Christy:

Yeah. It is. Because I feel like sometimes when people start to validate the other person's feelings, you feel like you're losing.

Lucas:

Ex Yes.

Christy:

You know, it's like, you know what? Okay, I I get that. You, I get that. You could feel that way. You know.

Lucas:

That doesn't mean that you ag like.

Christy:

Agree with you.

Lucas:

Think it's okay, or that you agree with them or like anything, it's just saying that like, yeah, you're not crazy like this. That makes sense. That you might feel that way. Um, because all feelings are valid.

Christy:

Yes. The good ones, the bad ones, all the ones in between, they're all valid. But I've seen people do this where they're like, I don't want, I feel like if I tell them that I can understand where they're coming from, that it invalidates my point and it's not, both can be true. And it's you telling someone that they may have a valid point or that their feelings are valid doesn't make yours any less valid. You're just respecting the person that's in front of you.

Lucas:

That's right. I think that a sign that maybe validation is not being heard or received well, or maybe we need to modify some or maybe you're just not validating at all when people get stuck and they're like repeating themselves over and over. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. To me, that's a sign that they're trying to prove to you that their concerns or whatever's going on is, is worthy of being upset. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so they're gonna continuously repeat themselves until you say like, yeah, that makes sense. Like whatever. And so it's okay. And sometimes people don't understand. It's like, it's okay to point that out. Like, I can, I feel like you are repeating yourself a bit. Like is there some, like, am I not, do you feel like I'm not understanding mm-hmm <affirmative>. Do you feel like I'm not validating that because I want you to feel validated.

Christy:

Which is seeking clarification.

Lucas:

Right?

Christy:

Yes. Which can, seeking clarification can really diffuse a lot of situations by just asking the question.

Lucas:

Yeah. How many times have you been in a conflict with somebody and then like halfway through it or whatever, you realized you were having a totally different conversation about something like you guys were talking past each other?

Christy:

Yes.

Lucas:

Or like talking about two different things.

Christy:

Yep.<Laugh> frequently <laugh> actually. Yeah.

Lucas:

Yeah. Clarification helps that

Christy:

Yeah, it does. Or Yeah. And that, that happens a lot.

Lucas:

Yeah. Or like, we assume something mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like, this is what you meant, or this is what this means, or something. Rather than just asking the question

Christy:

Or making assumptions about the person. Or saying, I figured that you thought this because of A, B, C, D, E. It's like, don't make assumptions about the other person that may or may not be true. Ask them, is this what you meant? Is this, is this what your intention was?

Lucas:

Right. When we have that, that clarity, we, we make sure that we're talking about the same thing and that we're all on the same page about what we're talking about so that we can start moving forward to the end, which is apologies. And that's a really hard skill sometimes <laugh>.

Christy:

It is. Because I feel like in order to get to the apology part, you do go round and round and round and round and round. And I think you have to go into those conversations wondering what do you need out of it? And, and when and when are you going to realize that you've got it, that you've got what you've needed and move on. 'cause for some people it's different. For some people it's like, I want you, I want to be heard. For some people, they go into it thinking, I want you to understand that I'm right and that you were wrong. And sometimes that is true. I mean, sometimes that is like a thing, but what do you need out of it in order to move through it? Otherwise it becomes very, very circular and cyclical and you're having the same argument over and over and over, and you're all just repeating yourselves. And it's like, what are we not getting out of this that we both need in order to move on?

Lucas:

Yeah. And I think a lot of times, um, going back to something we had talked about earlier, but like, that's when you start going in circles, oftentimes we are either A, somebody's not validated, or B, we're talking, we're focused way too much on circumstances rather than the feelings surrounding it. And so next, talking about apologies then like how to, because apologies are a great way to break out of that.

Christy:

Yeah.

Lucas:

<laugh>. And it's a really difficult skill sometimes, especially when we are really upset and still feel hurt. And so, like, before we kind of dive in into like how to do it, why it's important, what, what's an apology pet peeve of yours?

Christy:

Oh my God. Um,

Lucas:

Or multiple for that matter.

Christy:

Well, because.

Lucas:

I feel like a list just popped into your head.

Christy:

Yeah. There was, um, someone who just apologized to apologize and they don't really mean it.

Lucas:

Oh, yeah. Like to get out of like, to make it go away.

Christy:

Right or to say it in like a really sarcastic tone. Well, I'm sorry. Or I'm sorry you... That's a big one. We're like, I'm sorry that you feel that way.

Lucas:

I hate that one because it's like so gross.

Christy:

There's there's no accountability or acknowledgement that they did anything that contributed to the way I was feeling.

Lucas:

Right. It just says my feelings of the problem.

Christy:

Right. Right. Which is not good. Or the people that don't stop apologizing we're like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And then the...

Lucas:

That's the over apologizing thing we talked about earlier.

Christy:

Yeah. Shayla, she's our principal over at Dakota Memorial Schools. She's gonna kill me.

Lucas:

She's that. I'm, I was like, wow,

Christy:

I'm gonna tell this story.

Lucas:

You're throwing her under the bus.

Christy:

I am, which is where I like to put her. Um, <laugh>. She, I had, I was, I had a cat.

Lucas:

Oh no.

Christy:

Yep.

Lucas:

This story.

Christy:

Named Howard. Howard, the Wonder Catt mm-hmm <affirmative>. Affectionately known as Howie. And he died un tragically <laugh>. And I had a really hard time with that. Like Howie was like my buddy. Like, we were super, super tight when he, when he died, it was terrible. My friend Shayla went on a cruise two years later after Howard died and got <laugh>, got him a little, a little toy that she thought that she's like, oh my gosh, Christy needs this for Howie. And she was so excited to give it to me. And she, she's like, look what I got Howie. And I was like, Howie's dead. And she goes, oh my God, I'm so sorry this happened. I'm not even joking. I bet seven years ago, she still apologizes to me about that to this day. And it makes me feel bad that she still feels bad. So I'm like, oh my gosh, can we, can we stop apologizing for the thing that happened seven years ago? Like, I'm past it. I promise <laugh>, but like, it just like, like sometimes you just also have to let it go.

Lucas:

Yeah. Yeah. So Shayla, it's recorded now. So if you're feeling guilty about it, you can just listen to this and be validated that it's fine. Right. It's okay. It sure.

Christy:

<laugh> <laugh>. Right.

Lucas:

Uh, something that bug me is anytime you start it, you go, I'm sorry, but, because everything after the but is what I focus on. That came out weird. Thanks. We could have moved past it.

Christy:

I can't.

Lucas:

But you can't.

Christy:

No.

Lucas:

Um, it's as, as soon anytime you're apologizing and then new add in, but or however or whatever, it's puts everything before that as void and everything after. It is the only thing that we listen to.

Christy:

Yep. It drives me nuts.

Lucas:

Just say you're sorry. You could still say the other part in a different, maybe different sentence. But like saying, I'm sorry, but just ruins the apology.

Christy:

Yeah. Because you're still justifying your behavior.

Lucas:

Yeah. When people Oh, when people don't say what they're sorry for.

Christy:

Oh yes.

Lucas:

Where they're just like, I'm just, I'm sorry. And I'm like, I always ask for what even though I might know what it is I need, it is important for me personally to know that you understand what happened or what you did wrong.

Christy:

And what you're going to change moving forward.

Lucas:

Right. Yep.

Christy:

Like to me, an apology has to have those things. It has to have in it. I am, I am genuinely sorry for this thing and this is what I'm going to do to change so it doesn't happen again.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

Or make an effort for it to hopefully not happen again. Those things all have to be an apology for me. Otherwise it's just, it's just a thing that you do. And that's why I always hate, like, I don't hate it. That's Wow. A little much. But like, when we teach kids how to apologize and they're like, go say you're sorry. And, and a lot of times they like don't know what they're sorry for. You're just doing it because it's the socially acceptable thing to do when your kid is a jerk. And does something mean? 'cause kids are jerky and they do mean things 'cause their brains are developing. Um, and we forgive them, but like teaching your kids at a young age how to do a genuine apology and not just apologize to apologize.

Lucas:

Right. Yeah.

Christy:

Because how many times do you say, well go say you're sorry and, and we...

Lucas:

What do you say?

Christy:

And we even do it to teenagers who are completely capable of making a fa an apology and understanding their part in a conflict where they're just like, you just, you have to go apologize to your teacher. Like, you just have to say you're sorry or you have to say sorry to your coach. You don't have to do anything. And if you're going to do it, let's do it so it's meaningful and not just a thing that's just like, eh, sorry. Okay. Done. Check the box. We can move on now.

Lucas:

Right. Or like apology letters that some people make kids write, it's mm-hmm <affirmative>. It's never meaningful and they're just doing it to check a box so that people get off their back.

Christy:

Yeah, so the punishment can be over.

Lucas:

Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So, although I, the intention I think behind it is good. I don't, I don't think it's a super effective way to teach. Apologies. So why are apology so important? We've, we've kind of already talked about that a little bit mm-hmm <affirmative>. But like, I think the biggest thing is that it promotes healing.

Christy:

Oh, totally.

Lucas:

It, it starts that healing process and the repair of whatever happened in the relationship. You can't, you can't move forward without that.

Christy:

Right. I think apologies also don't necessarily mean forgiveness.

Lucas:

That's an excellent point. Yeah.

Christy:

And so, and I think that that's really hard for some people to wrap their heads around. Like, you can accept an apology from somebody, but that doesn't mean that you have to forgive them for what they've done. You can set really healthy boundaries for yourself and be like, you know what? This thing that you did hurt me so badly that you're no longer a safe person for me. But I appreciate the apology. And accept that because apologies, forgiveness is, is for you. Forgiveness isn't for, for the person who perpetrated against you. You know, like finding peace in your soul with a situation that forgiveness is something that you give to yourself.

Lucas:

What we should maybe define forgiveness because that there is there's a lot of misunderstanding about forgiveness I've found.

Christy:

Right 'cause people think, I think people think that if you forgive somebody, that that means that you're okay with what they've done. And that's not true.

Lucas:

Right. There's this phrase that's been around forever, but forgive and forget. And I hate that phrase.

Christy:

Yeah. Sign me up for hatred. Yeah.

Lucas:

Yeah. Um, because if, if somebody, like, if Christy were to punch me in the face.

Christy:

Yeah <laugh>, I'd have to learn, I'd have to learn how to punch first.

Lucas:

That's fair. But if Christy were to, I know that I could forgive Christy mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, for that, and we could work through that. But I'm like, if she gets mad again, like, I'm not gonna like just sit, I'm probably gonna move, you know, like, I'm not gonna forget.

Christy:

That's called trauma.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

Actually.

Lucas:

<laugh>. But I'm not gonna just like, not do anything different. Right. Like, I can forgive somebody and, and not forget what happened. Forgiveness is where you don't let, like, you don't hold onto it anymore. And you're not like, between Christy and I, like, I wouldn't be letting that impact our relationship moving forward.

Christy:

Yeah. Yeah. 100%. And I think forgiveness in any, well, really in any sort of conflict with anybody, you look at kind of the track record of the person that you're having a, a disagreement with. Like, despite what it seems like Lucas and I have a really good relationship. Right. Like, we've had way more positive experiences with one another than we have negative experiences. And I know who Lucas is, like at the soul of who he is. And I think he knows me at who very well. And so if I actually did end up hitting him, he would be like, I would think you'd be like, Christy's really having a bad day. Like, she, there's no way that this is normal Christy behavior.

Lucas:

Right. What is wrong? <laugh>.

Christy:

Right. Yeah. Right. What is wrong? And so, and I think that's, that is to be taken into consideration too when we talk about forgiveness. 'cause we, we get kids a lot of time who come in with, well, and adults for that matter. Who come in with years and years and years and years of trauma from a person. From one, you know, that have caused them grief throughout their whole life. And they're finally getting to this point where they're like, I don't think I can forgive them for this anymore. And it's like, forgiveness isn't for them. We're not, we're not excusing their behavior by any means because you've, you, you need to let go of it in order for you to like move on from that. But you also maybe have to look at, is this the kind of person that you wanna have in your life? And is, are they hap are, are they, are they adding to your life or are they taking away from it?

Lucas:

I think it's better to look at forgiveness as just letting go. And it

Christy:

Elsa

Lucas:

Yeah. Just <laugh> Frozen it.

Christy:

Yes Um, yes. The number of times I've summon Elsa. I was about to sing and then I thought way differently. 'cause Doug's got this, Doug's got us in his ears. And I don't know that he would really appreciate that.

Lucas:

Poor guy. Uh, <laugh>. Uh, and because you can, I don't like to use the phrase or the word forgive when talking about like, really, really hard or bad things that have happened. Like, 'cause it is, although technically possible to forgive like an abuser mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like that doesn't mean that you're gonna have a relationship with them. Like, I don't want you to but you can forgive them in that you let go of what happens so that you can move on with your life. You are not angry. You're not sitting in these really gross emotions all the time. But that is what forgiveness is. I would just, so I would more make it as, um, just letting go.

Christy:

Right. Yep. I think that's a, that's a good way to put it. And also remembering that it doesn't make what they did. Okay.

Lucas:

Ever. Yeah.

Christy:

Ever. Ever, ever, ever.

Lucas:

Yep. So when you're apologizing mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Christy:

Ooh. It's hard.

Lucas:

You, I don't think it's, it's okay to expect all the time forgiveness.

Christy:

Right.

Lucas:

That's so

Christy:

Yeah. That's fair.

Lucas:

Because that's not,

Christy:

You don't go into apology. You don't go into an apology expecting that you go in. That's not the purpose. You go into an apology because it is the right thing to do.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

To repair a relationship if it's possible.

Lucas:

Yeah. Because you realize that you did something wrong. And you feel badly about it, that you hurt them. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so then you're wanting to repair that. Now it's up to them if they forgive you. Or if they want to let that go. But you can't. I am of the thought that it is wrong for me to, if I apologize for me to expect you to then forgive me. And then if you don't be upset with you about that,

Christy:

That seems abusive. Lucas <laugh>. If you were to be upset with me because I am the way I am, I would almost go into it preemptively saying, I don't expect you to forgive me. I don't. But I, and if you need time, if you, if you need all the time in the world, if you never wanna talk to me again, I get it. But I need you to know that I am genuinely sorry for this and this is what I'm going to do to change it.

Lucas:

Right. What a perfect segue into how to make an apology.

Christy:

Wow.

Lucas:

That was a great example by the way.

Christy:

Thank you. Yeah. Pat myself on the back.

Lucas:

<laugh>, There's a, i, I don't know, there's like a billion different ways to like form a really good apology, but what are some key things that you wanna make sure are in there?

Christy:

I am sorry that I did this thing that made you feel this way. And then I want to know. So I'm sorry for this. This is what I'm gonna do to change it. Those are the, those are the three things that I always come up with. And if you wanna throw in some validation of how they're feeling, that's cool too. But apologies are hard because you are eating some crow a little bit to be like, it's not, it's not comfortable to accept that you've hurt somebody else.

Lucas:

Yeah. Another, so that was perfect. I have no notes.

Christy:

Oh, beautiful.

Lucas:

Well done. <laugh>.

Christy:

Thank you. Thank you

Lucas:

Uh, but I think, so what, it looks a little bit different when you're apologizing for something that maybe you don't feel like you did anything wrong. But somebody is telling you that they hurt you. Um, or maybe there was a conflict and you don't even understand what happened. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Apologizing. Especially, this is especially true for adults to children by just going in to the conversation. Even just starting it off with I am really sorry that I made you feel that way. I'm, can you tell me what I did to make that happen? So I don't do that again? Because I don't wanna make you feel that way again. And then you listen and you validate. You don't argue with them about what you said or what you did. You just, okay.

Christy:

Yep, yeah. Because a lot of times your, your inclination is to be like, I didn't do that. I, I didn't, I didn't do that. And it's like trying to prove your point to, especially at like a younger child, it doesn't, we're not proving a point. Their, their experience was their experience. There's nothing really that you can do to change that. But I do, I also wanna highlight the importance of apologizing to children. Because I think a lot of times parents will see that as, as a weakness or like, they need to be in charge, they need to be respected, they need, you know, whatever. And it's like news flash. Parents mess up.

Lucas:

Yes we do.

Christy:

All the time.

Lucas:

I know that firsthand actually.

Christy:

And, and the number of parents that I have in my office that are like, I am, they, they'll say, I am messing up my kid. I'm just, I'm terrible because I made this mess. You're going to make mistakes as a parent. Just because you made a mistake doesn't mean that you've messed up your child for life, I promise you. But if you do make a mistake and you know that, or you lost your temper or something, ha for you to go back to that child and say, I did not handle that well. And I am very sorry. There's so much power in a child hearing that from a parent and role modeling that, that that's how kids also learn how to apologize. And that there's no, it's not a weakness to apologize that you don't, it doesn't make you weak. It doesn't make you less than, it doesn't make you wrong. It doesn't make you a loser.

Lucas:

<laugh>.

Christy:

It just makes you, it makes you a person with empathy who cares about the people around them. And if you've done something intentional or unintentional that has made someone feel an unpleasant feeling, you, you take accountability and responsibility for it. And you say, I am really sorry. I will, I will, I'm going to try to not do that again. But the seeking clarification is really important, especially if you don't really know what you did. Because a lot of times kids specifically will get really mad about things and it looks like it's outta nowhere when it really isn't. It's either, you know, it could be you gave them the wrong plate, or you gave them a, a different cup, or you let their brother and sister use their cup. So clearly they love that sibling more than they love me. Completely unintentional on a, on a parent's part. Right. But the way that a child sees that is very different.

Lucas:

Yeah. I mean, this, this happened a while ago where Oliver, my, my son was, uh, he's coming out of his bed 'cause all kids do this. Right. We go to bed and then, then we have to come out a million times mm-hmm <affirmative>. To like, check to see if we're still, I don't know what they're doing. Um, 'cause sometimes he just comes out and he just stares at me and I'm like, are you okay? And he just is silent. And then I walk up to him and he just goes back to bed. So I don't even know what was happening. Yeah, it's weird. Um, there was a night only one, I swear, <laugh>, where I've gotten really frustrated about it. And I was maybe a little bit sterner than normal. I was just like,

Christy:

In your self-respect bubble.

Lucas:

Yes.

Christy:

On the aggressive side.

Lucas:

Absolutely. Yeah. Did not go outside of that.

Christy:

Yeah. Never.

Lucas:

Um, never <laugh>, um, oh boy. And he, in this example, I, I don't feel like I was over the top or anything like that. I was just using my dad voice mm-hmm <affirmative>. If you will. And I said, dude, it is time for bed. Go back to bed. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And he

Christy:

I love that. That's your aggressive voice.

Lucas:

<laugh>. Well, I'm not gonna <laugh> Anyways. He said that I scared him.

Christy:

Oh, sure.

Lucas:

With how I talked to him. And I was like, and my immediate reaction is like, what? Like I've this, that was not scary to you. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like, you're just trying to like be manipulative. Or like whatever. Right. All these intrusive thoughts. Um, thankfully I was using my skills at that time.

Christy:

Look at you.

Lucas:

And I just said, buddy, I'm sorry that I scared you. I wasn't trying to do that. I am really sorry that it did mm-hmm <affirmative>. We need to go back to bed though. Gimme a hug. And I got a hug and we went right back to bed. So if I had argued with him or gotten more frustrated with that, or been like, you are just trying to mess with me right now to stay outta bed, whatever, that would've escalated things more and made me feel gross. Made him feel even grosser than he did. And it just, it just wouldn't have helped anybody.

Christy:

How many times have you sat in your office and with a parent and, and their kid and the kid's, like, you yelled at me and, and the mom was like, I didn't yell at you.

Lucas:

All the time.

Christy:

Like, I, I wasn't yelling. The, I think the perception of especially anxious, sensitive kids when you are just talking to them in a way that isn't normal to them is yelling. And that's their perception. My mom said that to me all the time. Has my mom ever yelled at me? Probably not. 'cause I never really did anything wrong because I was too anxious too. But like, I think mom stop yelling at me. She's goes, Christy, I'm not yelling at you. I'm like, but it feels like it <laugh>. You know, 'cause it, it doesn't, it doesn't really matter what your voice tone is or how yell you're loud. You're really yelling. If the perception is that they feel like they're in trouble because of how you're talking to them, it's yelling.

Lucas:

Right. Yeah. And going back to something we had talked about before where we talked about being a little defensive or how, like you don't, you can't, can't get anywhere if you're defensive 'cause your ears turn off. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Apologizing lowers people's defenses. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because you're validating them and then they don't feel like they have to defend their position. So then now we can actually have a conversation. So when you're talking, especially with kids, and you start off with an apology based on how they feel, rather than arguing the circumstances surrounding what's going on. 'cause it might be, I mean, especially the young kids say ridiculous things that make no sense.

Christy:

That's true.

Lucas:

So then arguing that is pointless. But apologizing for however that you made them feel, no matter if it doesn't make sense to you. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Lowers their defenses. So now they can actually talk to you about what's going on and then move forward. Which is the goal. 'cause we're trying to solve problems, not win them.

Christy:

Right. I think it's also when, when you start that way, it means that the other person who's in this argument, whatever we're doing, also cares enough about your feelings just to apologize. And then it's like, oh, you do care about how I'm feeling. You do care that you actually hurt my feelings. And so now I feel like you're a more safe person to talk to about how I'm actually feeling and what caused that. Because I know this will come as a shock, but I, I have overreacted sometimes. <laugh>.

Lucas:

What?

Christy:

I know it's wild. But like, somebody will say something that's completely like, benign really. And I'll be like, are you calling me stupid? And was that the intention? No. But while I overreact. Absolutely. And so sometimes for somebody to be like, Hey, I'm sorry, I did not mean for you. And then I get embarrassed 'cause I knew that I overreacted. So I'm like, I know, I, I know that you weren't meaning that, but like, if you come at first and say, I'm sorry for doing that, it makes me feel more safe to say I know that I overreacted and I'm sorry. On my end too.

Lucas:

Rather than.

Christy:

But if you want to come to me first, I would've been like, Nope. Not doing it.

Lucas:

Or if I had argued with you about what I had said and what that meant, or another pet peeve of mine...

Christy:

And then I'm back to punching you in the face.

Lucas:

Right. Then you're punching me <laugh> great. Uh, <laugh>, uh, is Oh, now you, it just

Christy:

I know. I'm sorry. I should never do that to you.

Lucas:

It's okay. Oh, intentions.

Christy:

Oh, see, there it is.

Lucas:

There it is.

Christy:

I knew you'd find it.

Lucas:

Intentions don't always matter. And so when you're apologizing saying, I'm sorry I meant for this, or when I said it, I was doing this. Like, sometimes that actually causes more harm.

Christy:

Right? Oh God. Yeah.

Lucas:

And so just be careful. Like sometimes it can be helpful mm-hmm <affirmative>. But just be careful when doing that. I think that, that a lot of people will go that route mm-hmm <affirmative>. But oftentimes it can feel like a justification for your behavior rather than an actual apology. And if you are somebody who's receiving that from someone and you're feeling like you're being invalidated or it's a justification, very kindly point that out. And just ask them for clar for clarity. 'cause this is what you're, this is what I'm hearing you say when you said that. And then you guys can talk about that quick.

Christy:

Right. And it's very important to, to in, in my head, because all relationships are different. Right. If you're having conflict with your boss, if you're having conflict with your partner, if you're having a conflict with your parent, what, whatever, what do you want the outcome to be? You know, like, do you want to salvage the relationship? Because how you go about something that you wanna salvage, I feel like is different than going into an apology where you're gonna end up setting boundaries. And so if it, if in the end you're arguing or apologizing or accepting whatever with the person that you wanna continue to have a relationship with, you really do have to listen and really take, take into account how their apology is making you feel. And they need to realize how, how it's making you feel. And really at the end be like, are we good? And I think that's like the, the tie up part of it is like, is there, is there anything else that you need from me to help us move forward in this situation? Are we cool?

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

You know?

Lucas:

That's a really important step.

Christy:

Yeah. And then, because then to me in my head, if, if I, if I offer that up to you and you're like, no, we're cool. And I'm like, yeah, I'm cool too. It's done. It's done. And we're not bringing that into the next argument.

Lucas:

Yeah. And I would say clarify what you mean by are we, are we good? Because there could be two really distinct, there could be multiple meanings to it, but two really important ones that are very different. One, are we good? Like in this moment? Like is this conflict done? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or are we good as an, is our relationship in danger? Because I mean, the second one, that one is way more scary. So if I am asking Christy, are we good? And I'm meaning is our relationship in danger? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And she's like, no, we're not good right now because just this single conflict is not resolved yet. But like, she's like, oh no, we're still gonna be friends. We just need to work through this. When she says no, I'm gonna freak out <laugh>.

Christy:

Right.

Lucas:

So.

Christy:

Right. Because if we wouldn't have freaked out 17 steps before this part, but then it would really freak freak out at that point. Oh my gosh. Yeah. It's hard.

Lucas:

Conflict is so hard.

Christy:

It is hard. And it's uncomfortable. And nobody likes to do it.

Lucas:

I think just a couple things that I tell, especially couples, but also families when I've worked with them is developing what I call fight rules. And I think we talked a bit about that in our relationship episode. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. But that's just rules that you guys create together that need to be agreed upon that you guys follow. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And an example of that would be, we don't call each other names. Or we don't hit or we don't throw things. And I hope that those are just like common sense, but for some people they're not. Because that's just how they grew up with Yeah. Or whatever. But it could be as simple as like, I cannot have people walk away from me while I'm, we're having a conversation. So if you need to walk away, like to go to the bathroom quick or whatever, like you just gotta tell me where you're going.

Lucas:

Otherwise, I think that you just wanna be done talking. And you don't care anymore. So come up with those, uh, and come up also with like what I call parachute options. So if the conversation is just not being productive mm-hmm <affirmative>. Maybe we are both struggling to follow the fight rules. Maybe our skills are just not working right now. Or we need to use some better ones and that's not gonna work in front of you. Walk away for a second. Tell them what you're doing. But take a break from it. You don't have to solve it right then and there.

Christy:

Right. I would also say that not everyone deserves a platform to give you an apology. What I mean by that is that if you find yourself in a conflict and you are being manipulated and gaslit and it is just not you, you do not have to entertain that sort of thing. And in those cases, you may have to learn how to forgive people and let things go without an apology because they may not be capable of giving you one. Because see, previous narcissist podcast. You know? And so if you find yourself in that sort of situation, like you're gonna drive yourself crazy trying to have a productive conversation with somebody who is an unhealthy person. And they don't, you don't have to entertain those conversations. Set boundaries.

Lucas:

Yeah. And I will say, we've talked about this a bunch of different podcasts too, we're referencing a lot of podcasts, but.

Christy:

We are because we've done a lot.

Lucas:

<laugh>. We've done a few. Yeah. But a conflict with within a healthy relationship should never make you feel physically unsafe. Or just unsafe in general. You should be able to have conversations or conflict and it be okay. Like, so if you're in a relationship or a situation where you feel unsafe mm-hmm <affirmative>. Please go talk to somebody and get help. Or try to help figure that out, because it doesn't have to be that way and it shouldn't be that way.

Christy:

Right. There is not a relationship in the world that is conflict free.

Lucas:

No.

Christy:

There just isn't.

Lucas:

If there was, that's probably a red flag actually. I would think that's somebody's lying.

Christy:

Yeah, or placating.

Lucas:

Yeah. It's just not healthy.

Christy:

No. So, conflict can be healthy. It doesn't always have to be bad.

Lucas:

Yeah. Even though we hate conflict.

Christy:

Right. <laugh>, <laugh> we do. But it also, but also, you can't also be living in constant conflict. That's, that's not good.

Lucas:

Stay away from extremes.

Christy:

Yes, moderation is key.

Lucas:

We always want to encourage you to ask the question, is it just me? You're likely not alone. And there is always a way to help. If anything we've talked about today resonates with you, please reach out.

Christy:

Do you have a topic you'd like us to talk about? Message us. We'd love to hear from you. It is, isitjustme@dakotaranch.org? You can text us. You can call Doug at the front desk, Doug and Bekah. They'll, they'll take, they'll take podcast ideas.

Lucas:

There you go.

Christy:

Yeah. Message us in any, any way. We are always looking for, always looking for new material.

Lucas:

Yeah. And don't forget to share us with your friends and family.

Announcer:

Thanks for listening to today's episode of Is It Just Me? To learn more or make an appointment for psychiatric or mental health services at Dakota Family Services, go to dakotafamilyservices.org or call 1 800 2 0 1 64 95.

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