About the Hosts

Christy Wilkie provides therapy for children and adolescents, ages 5-25, who have complex behavioral health issues. She combines her extensive clinical expertise with a belief in kids, and has a unique ability to find and develop their strengths. She works hard to be an ideal therapist for her clients, doing what is best to fit their needs.

Lucas Mitzel provides therapy for children, adolescents, and adults, ages 5 - 30. He believes building relationships with clients is the most important piece of successful therapy. He loves what he does because it allows him to walk next to people he would never have met had he chosen a different profession, as they work to make amazing life changes. He has the honor of meeting people at their worst, all while watching them grow into the people they’ve always wanted to be.

Transcript
Is It Hard To Like Ourselves?

Featuring Christy Wilkie, LCSW, and Lucas Mitzel, LCSW, Dakota Family Services

Announcer:

This episode of Is It Just Me, is brought to you by Dakota Family Services, your trusted partner in mental and behavioral health, whether you need in-person or virtual care. The team of professionals at Dakota Family Services is dedicated to supporting children, adolescents, and adults in their journey to better mental health.

Christy:

Disrupting life patterns and life routines that aren't serving you.

Lucas:

It's how we feel that keeps us going.

Christy:

You can be a masterpiece and a work of art all at the same time.

Lucas:

Hey everyone, I'm Lucas.

Christy:

And I'm Christy.

Lucas:

And you're listening to the Is It Just Me podcast.

Christy:

Where we aim to provide education, decrease the stigma, and expel some myths around mental health.

Lucas:

Christy, is it just me or is it sometimes hard to like ourselves?

Christy:

It is sometimes hard to like ours. So it's not just you.

Lucas:

That's good. <laugh>.

Christy:

Yeah.

Lucas:

That's good.

Christy:

That is good. I think it was so funny 'cause we were, we were talking about what to do for this podcast this week, and I, and on our notes there's always a box you can check that says things that you worked on. And one of 'em is self-esteem. And I was like, the amount of times I check self-esteem on a documentation note is like almost everyone

Lucas:

<laugh> Almost every time.

Christy:

Seriously.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

And that, so I was like, why is it that we're all just feeling maybe not the greatest about ourselves?

Lucas:

Right. That's a Yeah. And that's a, I think that's a really good question because even I would even research shows that this is a really big issue. There's

Christy:

Oh research. We're like literally 30 seconds in.

Lucas:

I know. I'm sorry guys.

Christy:

Oh my God.

Lucas:

It's not a lot today though. So I mean, some, some places we're saying that like up to 85% of people struggle with low self-esteem. Wow.

Christy:

Wow

Lucas:

Which is way too many.

Christy:

That is about 85% too many.

Lucas:

Yeah. And I don't know what that means for the other 15. Like what They're <laugh>,

Christy:

Are they the narcissists?

Lucas:

Right. Are they the narcissists? See our narcissist podcast.

Christy:

Right, exactly.

Lucas:

Or are they under reporting?

Christy:

Right. Or are they healthy?

Lucas:

So it's a big issue. And like you said, we talk about it all the time. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. In sessions. And I think that you could just see that in the world. You don't have to be a therapist to know that people have low self-esteem.

Christy:

No, and what's, what's so funny, it's not funny, it's actually the opposite of funny is that it's, but it's intriguing because sometimes I'll get, people say, well, how do you feel about yourself? They're like, oh, pretty good. I really like myself. And then they'll proceed to go on and tell me stories about all the things that they do wrong and why people don't like them and how they wanna be like other people. And I was like, can I, let's wrap it back here. Remember that one time when you said you liked yourself? He was like, well, yeah, that's kind of the right answer. And I was like, okay. But if it's not true, it's not the right answer. Right? Because we just went through all of these reasons why your self-esteem is absolutely in the gutter.

Lucas:

Right. I really like myself. I also really suck. You know, that's kind of how that goes.

Christy:

Right. Or the say I really like myself, but...

Lucas:

Oh, the, but.

Christy:

I know it's like there's no.

Lucas:

Yeah. It's, it, it's a, it's a problem.

Christy:

It is absolutely a problem.

Lucas:

So what is self-esteem? How would you define that?

Christy:

Self-esteem to me is how you feel about yourself and how you function in the world around you.

Lucas:

Yeah. It's like how you describe how you feel about yourself or just like, yeah, like you said, kinda like your opinion about yourself as a whole. And I think that that's a, although a very common question, like how do you feel about yourself or like how, you know, whatever it, it is a complex answer. I think sometimes because it's not just like, I feel this way all of the time. Self-esteem fluctuates. Throughout the day, throughout the week. Right? And there's a lot of different factors that go into that.

Christy:

Right. It's interesting, I was on the radio with JJ and Amy this week and we were talking, I don't know what we were talking about. We were talking about sourdough and then it verged into something like this.

Lucas:

Of course you're talking about sourdough.

Christy:

Yes, because that's just what we do. Apparently. They both have sovereign, it's, it was a whole thing. Anyway, <laugh>, what was interesting is that he said, when I was talking to JJ, he goes, I always ask how people are twice because you'll get a different answer both times. So he is like, how are you, how are you feeling today? And most people are like, fine. Like, you just feel like it's a, like you're placating. Like it's just like, this is just a pleasantry that we do. But if someone says no, like, how are you doing? And then it makes 'em stop and think about really how they're feeling. And you always get a different answer. We just did this with Doug.

Lucas:

That is true. I was just thinking that.

Christy:

Thinking that our friend Doug is in here doing our producing editing and we just asked how he was and he's like, I'm fine. And Lucas is like, no, like, how are you really? And he's like, actually I'm, I'm warm <laugh>. It's, it's warm in here. So it's like a different answer. And I think the same thing kind of applies with self-esteem. It's like, how do you feel about yourself? People are gonna go fine. It's like, no. Like how do you feel about yourself? And sometimes you have to ask yourself that more than once too. Because even in my head, my answer changes when I ask myself that twice.

Lucas:

Right. Yeah. I think that's a really, really good point. And I've never actually like thought about that. How if you ask twice the answer always does change.

Christy:

It does.

Lucas:

That's really interesting.

Christy:

I know. And I was like, thanks JJ.

Lucas:

<laugh>. Thank you. JJ <laugh>.

Christy:

Thanks JJ Gordan<laugh>.

Lucas:

So why does it matter? Why, why does self-esteem matter? I think that that's a, it's a good question. And I think that it is maybe perceived as more of like a, a simple question, but it's, I don't think it is.

Christy:

To me, in so many situations, self-esteem is really one of the foundation. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. It's like, like it is the foundation of any of the work that we do. It's like the root of the tree. Right. Like if we, if you don't, if you can't feel good about yourself and we can't find ways to feel good about yourself, it suffers in relationships. You suffer at your job, you suffer in communication. You, I mean, it impacts every area of your life. If you don't have the self-esteem or confidence to know who you are and feel good about who you are and realize that you can set expectations and boundaries and that, that that's okay. Like, so much stems from how we feel about ourselves that you can't, I think that's why I check the dang box all the time. 'cause it's like if you don't have the confidence in self-esteem, you really have a hard time making changes outside of that.

Lucas:

Right. I think. And so self-esteem is, like you said, it's like a, it's a foundational issue and it, based on how you are with your self-esteem, it can change how you act just in general, how you treat other people. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. How you impact the world around you as a whole. They, people with low self-esteem tend to maybe have some decreased mood, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Overall, which can lead to feeling insecure, maybe lashing out all the way to like, just simply not trying. As hard as somebody else might at something, giving up sooner. I know that we see this with, we see this a lot with a lot of people, but like, it's most prevalent, I would say, with like little kids. Right. So like, if they don't feel like they can do it, if they don't feel like they're good enough and then it doesn't go perfectly the first time they just give up, we're done. I'm actually, it's interesting 'cause I'm working on this with my son right now. We're trying to learn how to ride a pedal bike.

Christy:

Oh my gosh.

Lucas:

Yeah. It's super.

Christy:

I'm sorry, he's not old enough to ride a pedal bike.

Lucas:

He is.

Christy:

That's disgusting.

Lucas:

I know. He's getting so big. Um

Christy:

So cute.

Lucas:

<laugh>. That is true.

Christy:

Shout out to Ollie. He's pretty adorable.

Lucas:

He's like killing it in that department. Um, but he got really frustrated mm-hmm <affirmative>. With that. And we are trying to get him back onto it. But it, it's, it's difficult because his, uh, the, he doesn't feel like he's able to do it because it didn't work the first time. And that's just one little example. But I think that when you have a lower self-esteem, that becomes more prevalent. And happens more often. With things,

Christy:

I'm going down a rabbit hole a little bit and I could absolutely be making this up because we are going into the like, history books of like Psych 1 0 1 that I took in like 1998. But I feel like one of, like, one of Erickson's eight stages is like autonomy versus dependence. And so you talk about like maybe where we, I'm sure we'll talk about where self-esteem comes from, but like in that case it's like you could either do it for him and be like, okay, let's, let's get you, or you come, you come back and say, no, you, you got this. Like, when you're fostering that autonomy in people versus Okay, I'll just do it for you. That's, that's a huge thing.

Lucas:

Yeah

Christy:

For little kids.

Lucas:

Absolutely. And that goes into like how important it's to, to let kids fail. And let them learn from that. Um, I tell parents all the time that like, let's let our kids fail safely. And like if, if here's an example with my son again, but he was pushing back on his chair and leaning back on it. I'm like, buddy, let's not do that. 'cause that's not safe. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Now is it going to like severely injure him if he falls or like falls back on his No. And so am I going to stop him from doing that? No, I warned him. And then the natural consequence of him falling back, he learns, oh, that wasn't fun. Dad was Right. Let's not do that again.

Christy:

Oh and you get to say, I told you so.

Lucas:

Which is my favorite <laugh>, uh,

Christy:

Of course.

Lucas:

But that failing safely helps build that self-esteem because you, they're learning. Of like their limits and what they can do. And, and I think that that can, that's kind of counterintuitive sometimes.

Christy:

Yeah.

Lucas:

But

Christy:

I think about even on our very first podcast, we talked about trying new things and, and I see this in so many people where they think if they're not really good at something, if they're not the best at something that they shouldn't do it. And that that's, it's so wrong. Because it's like, well, if I'm not the best at it, then wom wamp. Like I, I don't have the confidence or self-esteem to put myself out there and do something just in a really mediocre way that you enjoy. Yeah.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

And it is okay to be mediocre.

Lucas:

It is so okay

Christy:

To be, trust me, because if it's not, I am so screwed <laugh>, but like, I love to run. I'm a very mediocre runner, but I love it. And so I'm not, I'm gonna keep doing it. But when, when you first start, it's hard. It's like going to a gym, right? You go to a gym and if you don't know what you're doing, like not having the confidence to screw up makes you not go into a gym. Because you don't want people to judge you or think that you run stupid or whatever. Now it's like, I don't care everybody, if you mean, look, everybody runs stupid unless you're like an Olympian. Everyone looks ridiculous. Like we just absolutely all, we're just out there looking ridiculous together. And once you get a part of the running community, you know that. But if you don't have the confidence to put yourself out there and try something new, you just are never gonna know.

Lucas:

But it's interesting because you say that you're a mediocre runner. How many marathons have you done? Yeah. You said that very quietly.

Christy:

Training for my fifth. Yeah.

Lucas:

You can't be on your fifth marathon and be a mediocre runner. In my mind. <laugh>,

Christy:

My, this was, so this was actually something that changed my perspective. My, my friend who we call Goose had texted me and he's like, how long does it take for an average person to run a marathon? And so I text back and I was like, like about four hours, four and a half hours. And he goes wrong. An average person doesn't run a marathon. And I went, oh

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

That puts it into perspective now, doesn't it? You know, but I think that about a lot of things that we do in life, and not just running, but people in general, it's like, maybe it's because it's something you do all of the time that you don't realize how great it is that you do that. Right. So it's like some, we get this question a lot where people are like, how do you do that every day? Like, how do you go to work and listen to people all day long? And it's like, I don't know how to do anything. Like I wouldn't do anything else. Like I don't have any problem with that. Conversely, I look at a sixth grade math teacher and I'm like, <laugh>, how do you do that every day?

Lucas:

Yeah. No, thank you. Shout out to sixth grade math teachers.

Christy:

Everywhere. A math, any people who are math anywhere really. Like

Lucas:

Oh that's fair. Yeah.

Christy:

Like props to them. But, but to them, like, I don't think that they realize how great they are because it's something that they just do.

Lucas:

Yeah. Somebody's mediocre is another person's like goal.

Christy:

Correct.

Lucas:

And so, but it's, it's interesting because we are typically, people are much harder on themselves mm-hmm <affirmative>. Than other people are on them. And I think it's just important to remember that. And so when you're criticizing yourself or thinking like, man, I could be doing better about something. Like maybe take a second look at that. And it might just make you feel a little bit better about that.

Christy:

Well we, I talk, and I don't, I don't know if this is actually what it's called, but it's, what I've always called is called deficit thinking. We always look at what you don't have versus what you do. Like you look at what's missing or what's bad instead of everything around you. That's good because most of the time, I'm gonna give us a little leeway here, but 90% of our lives are actually really good. And there might be 10% that's struggling or it's not going right. But we are consumed with that 10% and we don't live in the 90. And when you live in that 10% and you always start looking at what's wrong, that becomes a habit. Thinking, thinking thoughts in general are very powerful and they're habitual. So if you are always looking for what's wrong, that's what you're gonna look for. And that's not great. And so we're trying to get people to say, let's look at what's right. Like let's focus, like make an actual effort to focus on what's right. Because if you start looking and purposefully looking for what's right about you or what's right about people around you, it is incredible how that changes the way that you think.

Lucas:

Yeah. It's gonna, I think I've mentioned this before, but I call it the whiteboard analogy, where if you have a blank whiteboard and the blank is supposed, or the white part of it is supposed to represent things going well, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I put a black.in the center of the board, everybody just looks at the dot. Right? You just look at the imperfection. I could scatter some dots to make it more like a realistic day of just like a little minor inconveniences. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. But how many times, I know I'm super guilty of this, of like some minor inconvenience or even moderate inconvenience ruins a large part of my day.

Christy:

Right<laugh> <laugh>. Yeah

Lucas:

Yeah. You know, 'cause that's just all I

Christy:

If you let it.

Lucas:

Yeah. And when like that was maybe five minutes of my day. And we just hang onto it and carry it with us when we could just let it go. And move on with it. Keeping in mind, this is like for like an average human. Right? Everybody's got different life experiences and stuff. We're not saying that everybody has 90% amazing. Whatever. It's obviously different. So this wasn't pulled from like a study. This was pulled from Christy.

Christy:

Yeah yeah. This is my brain <laugh>.

Lucas:

So yeah. It just, it's really the way that we view things or way way that we look at ourselves. If we can modify that, we can shift our self-esteem. And that's, that takes a while to do. It's a lot of work.

Christy:

I always give the example, and I'm sure Lucas is even tired of hearing this example, but with the grades, the report cards, they come home and you get six A's and A and a B and what does everybody focus on the B. 'cause you're looking at what's like, what could you have done differently to get an A instead of looking at, wow, you got an A in art. Tell me about that. Like, that's incredible. Like you did a great job in art. Like sometimes if it's like an F or a D, like of course you have to address it.

Lucas:

Of course.

Christy:

I get it. But that doesn't negate the A. You know, it's like let's, let's talk about what we're good at too.

Lucas:

Right. Which kind of goes into like what causes low self-esteem because a, a lot of it starts in our childhood. And it's messages that parents, teachers, coaches, siblings, whoever friends have sent to us either purposefully or accidentally. And what you just described was one of those accidental messages. That could have been sent, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So you as a parent, like it is, you're not doing anything inherently wrong. By, by asking about the F for the D or whatever. But the message that could be sent and is sent sometimes is that my worth comes from my grades. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I only get praised or I only get positive affirmations when it's going well. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And nobody ever focuses on anything. But when I'm doing something poorly mm-hmm <affirmative>. So then that teaches the kid that they need to be hyper-focused on perfection sometimes. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I'm going to the extreme. But we see this all the time. All the time. And that can cause a lot of problems in just everyday living.

Christy:

It is also extraordinarily prevalent in children's sports.

Lucas:

Yes. I have that written down.

Christy:

Do you?

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

Look at us on the save wavelength. That's weird. <laugh>.

Lucas:

So weird.

Christy:

So strange. But that, that is a huge one because from the time you're little, I mean we put a lot of pressure on kids to make the best team do better, run faster, hit harder, make more shots. It's all focused on what you can do better. It's not, which is why good coaching is really important. 'cause I think I had a couple coaches in, when I was in high school, one our basketball coach, who was one of the most winningest coaches.

Lucas:

The most winningest.

Christy:

Yes. In in Minnesota girls basketball. He's a great coach. But he was a guy that was kind of focused on like, what can we do better all the time? Right. Like he, he was, what do you call it? He was, he was a really tough coach. I'm a very anxious person. I don't respond to people yelling at me. Like someone yells at me and I shut down and I'm like, I'm going to see myself out of the situation. Right. I had a tennis coach who was completely different. Like, it was like, oh, you're doing a great job. Like how can we, how can we get this? How can we do this differently? Or what can we do to make you better? What do you need from me? Like that kind of thing. And that was way more, I was way more responsive to that. And different kids respond to different things, whatever. But you look at coaching in general and it's always based on what could you have done better? And that, that really messes with someone's head.

Lucas:

Yeah. It absolutely can. And for some kids it's totally, you mentioned this, some kids, it's totally fine. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And you made me think of when I was in wrestling, I had a conversation with my parents because I, when I was, when I would be wrestling, it's very common if you've ever been to a wrestling match, especially like big tournaments where you'll have like parents or whatever they're screaming at the kids who are wrestling, trying, trying to help mm-hmm. Giving them things that they're seeing. Like, hey, try this move, you know, keep pushing, you know, whatever. All that stuff. Anyways, that, like, Christy made me really anxious. And I was trying to listen to everybody all at once mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then I would lose focus and I would, it wouldn't go well. So I had to tell people like, I need you to not be screaming at me. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And like, when I come to the side, like during like a little bit of a break, like when the period's over or whatever to like, just give me some advice there mm-hmm <affirmative>. But like much gentler than yelling at me because I think you're mad at me. I know. And I'm doing it wrong. I know. <laugh> <laugh>. So, and, but other kids really like that. And that you, it's really important to have those conversations with kids.

Christy:

Right. And your parents as I also, my dad is one of the most supportive people always was whatever, but I was, I was a tennis player and when I would double fault that he hated nothing more than when I double faulted. And I could hear him at the top of the hill because our tennis coach at the bottom and he'd always go, Ugh. And I was like, you don't think that I felt that too. I don't need to hear it from you. Like, that doesn't, that's not helpful. And so I find, I talked to my dad, I said, can you not <laugh> after I double fault make that noise? And, and he tried, I think it was just like impulsive. He wasn't trying to be a jerk. But, but me, I took that as like, I, I am, nobody is more critical of myself than I am. Don't need it from on top of the hill.

Lucas:

Right. There's nothing that you could say to me that I haven't already said.

Christy:

Exactly.

Lucas:

So, yeah. And I, and again, like, you're not, like, my parents weren't doing anything wrong.

Christy:

No.

Lucas:

You know, they were trying to

Christy:

They're trying to do the right thing. Yes

Lucas:

Yeah. Coaches trying to make their players better, that's their job. Right?

Christy:

Yeah. No coach goes out there and thinks, how can I make this kid worse at what they're doing?

Lucas:

Right. <Laugh>, how can I make all of my kids feel bad?

Christy:

I wanna lose everything

Lucas:

<laugh>. That's just not how it goes. And so that's when those subliminal or like the, the accidental messages kind of come through mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it can lower people's self-esteem. And so it's just really important to have those conversations with kids, like what works best for them. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Parents and coaches, but then also even like adults who are in, like if you're seeing a personal trainer or like if you're, if you're like with your boss mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right. And talking about what sort of things work best for you.

Christy:

But you have to have confidence in order to have the convo.

Lucas:

Right. So then we're gonna get to how to, how to get that in a second.

Christy:

Oh, good.

Lucas:

But so we've talked a little bit about like the different impacts we've kind of like sprinkled a little bit. But like, let's go in depth. So like with, we'll start with mental health. Sure. The impact of self-esteem on mental health. And it's kind of like a chicken or the egg sort of situation. Like does your self-esteem get lowered because of mental health concerns? Or does self-esteem cause mental health concerns? And I would say yes, both. <laugh> <laugh>

Christy:

True. Alex. Yes. I look at, and we talk a lot about this specifically with ADHD because a lot of kids with ADHD are impulsive and they're hyperactive and they're moving. And so from a very young age, they're told, stop, quit it, don't. And, and a lot of times when you don't know how your brain is functioning or why it's not, kids want to do well, kids would do well if they could. We know that if they can't, it's because there's something getting in the way. And so when you have kids who want to sit and listen because they know that that's what you want them to do, and they literally can't, and then they keep getting in trouble. Like those kinds of things. And the messaging can cause someone to be like, what's wrong with me that I can't do what is expected of me because I want to do the right thing and I can't. And so then you start thinking it causes anxiety, then you're just like, I don't wanna go to school 'cause I'm gonna get yelled at. 'cause I know that I wanna do the right thing and I can't do the right thing. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then if you don't go to school, and it's like, what's so, it's like anxiety, depression, I mean, it just is a, it is a snowball of what happens when, when that kind of thing happens. So I think about that specifically with mental health. I think anxiety can do that too.

Lucas:

Yeah. I, I agree with all of that. And there's, there's nothing that is more heartbreaking than having like a 6-year-old sit there and tell you that they're just a bad kid because they have unmedicated, unmanaged adhd and they just have really bad impulse control mm-hmm <affirmative>. Which is just their brain misfiring. It's not their fault, but all of these messages where nobody's told them that they're a bad kid. It's just they're constantly in trouble. And so bad kids get in trouble. I am a bad kid. Wow. That sucks.

Christy:

Yeah. But that's a simple, I mean, talk about a 6-year-old that's, that's the processing.

Lucas:

Yeah. And it's like, I can, I, I could see that. Like I could see where you would go there. It doesn't seem super irrational to me. And then with anxiety, like anxiety is that your, we've talked about this in a, in a past podcast, but you're worried about something in the future, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so if you're constantly worried that there's going to be some sort of a threat or that something's gonna go wrong, you that's gonna lower your self-esteem a bit. And people with lower self-esteem don't think that things are gonna go well for them. Because they don't view themselves very highly. Which is gonna make them more anxious.

Christy:

And I, I don't know if you know this, I don't think you know anything about anxiety, but when anxious people get handed a criticism, even in the slightest.

Lucas:

I feel like this is very targeted towards me right now. Actually <laugh>

Christy:

Like what most people would be like, oh, thanks for the feedback. An anxious person goes, you hate me. I'm doing everything wrong. I'm not good enough. I don't deserve to be here. I don't deserve to be around these people. That teacher hates me. Like my boss hates me. I am getting fired today. Like, that's what an anxious brain works like. And so it's like, it's not the fault of people around you, but it's like, when you talk about self-esteem, when you have an anxious person and they get criticized, it is really hard for your self-esteem to be like, you can do it. You are, you are strong and capable. That's what I said coming down the hallway today. We were coming into the podcast, you can do anything. You are strong and capable. And Luke's like, well that was a nice way to enter. And I was like, yeah, I didn't realize you heard me, but that works. But sometimes you have to do that.

Lucas:

Absolutely. And I, it's funny 'cause I'm very aware of that mm-hmm <affirmative>. Where criticism is really, I take it really hard. I want that feedback. Like, I want to always be doing better, but it is really hard for me to hear that I'm doing something. Maybe that's not perfection.

Christy:

You don't say.

Lucas:

Yeah. And my, our boss knows this about me. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it's really funny 'cause in my reviews or whatever, she's like, you know, you're doing great at this. This is great, this is great. And then very quietly she goes, and could you just like maybe do this, um, just like sprinkles it in it the end because she knows it's gonna hit like a boss. Right. And so <laugh> and that is a piece of that anxiety that I, I struggle with. And voice that 'cause somebody who's anxious. I am constantly self-evaluating and making sure that I am not making people mad at me. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or like that I'm doing the right thing or whatever. Right. And so when I hear that maybe I'm missing the mark, even if it's by like a centimeter mm-hmm <affirmative>. On something, it just validates all of these fears. That it shouldn't be validating. And causes a little bit of a spiral sometimes you

Christy:

Don't say

Lucas:

Yeah. Just a little one. <laugh>,

Christy:

It's gotten littler <laugh> <laugh>. I will say that. Uh, but yeah. And I, I would say that the same thing happens with depression. If you are a person that suffers with depression, again, egg, chicken, whatever. But you get a depressed person and you put them in a situation and, and they're constantly feeling like they're not good enough. It's like, oh man, nobody wants to hang out with me. I'm not, I'm not any fun. I'm sad all the time. Like, I'm, I can't go out and do something 'cause I'm crying. Which really sucks because one of the biggest things to fight depression is to get out and do something. Like, try something, do something.

Lucas:

Go be with people.

Christy:

Yeah. Go be with people. And sometimes in self-esteem, if you feel like you're no fun or that people don't wanna be around you, like you don't wanna go out and do things. And that's not great.

Lucas:

No. And it, it can lead to an increased risk in suicide. And self-harm. And it's, I tell parents this, especially as I work with a lot of kids, but if there is something that you need to talk to them about that maybe that's not going well. Like when you have a depressed child, you need to be very gentle, because it is just going to be that much more to be harder received a lot harder than somebody who's maybe got a little bit more of a healthier brain.

Christy:

I would also say a good chunk of the work that I was say do, do <laugh> <laugh>. Wow. A good chunk of the work that I do is also around identity formation. Because you get a lot of people that come in and for a good chunk of their lives, they're, they're trying to be what they think everybody else wants them to be. And so they like pick up hobbies that other people pick up or they, they are interested, they try to be interested in things that other people are interested in. It's like, let's kick down to who are you, what do you like to do? Because if you keep trying to be what everybody else wants you to be, you're always gonna fail because that's not who you are inherently as a person. Organically, like the organic version of yourself. So let's sit down and figure who are you, what do you want to do, what are your positive traits about you? Like what, let's look at who you are and then we can move from there. But trying to be everything to everyone without figuring out who you are is such a futile effort.

Lucas:

Yeah. That reminds me, there's this sociological concept known as the looking glass self.

Christy:

Oh yeah.

Lucas:

Shut up Christy <laugh>. I wish everybody could have just seen the looks you gave me. <laugh>. Um, the, the, uh, and it's this idea that we act in a way where we've, we act how we think people view us.

Christy:

Oh, sure.

Lucas:

So if I think that Christy views me in a negative light or that I am like really clumsy or unintelligent or whatever, like I might act that way around her because that's how I view that she, that's how I think she views me. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um,

Christy:

He's right. <laugh>. I'm just kidding.

Lucas:

Wow. Look what I have to put up with.

Christy:

I know.

Lucas:

Um, and, and this I think plays a really big, it's big an identity work that you're talking about and obviously impacts our self-esteem. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. If you think that people look at you in a negative way or think of you poorly, you might act as if that's true. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Even if it's not. So just something to keep in mind and like, uh, just I think it's good to just evaluate that. Every now and again.

Christy:

Or even like, if, if people think that you're funny, if you have to be the funny one, even if you great. If you, even if you aren't in a mood to be funny, if if you think you gotta show up and that's your role, then that's what you do. And it's like, but is that really who you are? Like, you look at people like Robin Williams for example, who turns out homeboy was depressed for quite a while. But nobody knew 'cause he was always the funny guy. Because that's what, but he was just doing what he wanted, what he thought people wanted from him. Right.

Lucas:

Right. Which, I mean, it goes into another thing like when people are have low self-esteem, a lot of times they will overcompensate for things. Right. And they might go overboard in acting like confident mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or funny or whatever because they don't, they don't want how they actually feel to be true.

Christy:

Right. Yes. I, this is a dumb example, but it is an example that came to my head when you talk about kind of overdoing it to kind of overcompensate. If there was, if I was in college and it was a 12 page paper, mine would be 15. Because it was like, if I can do three pa that's three more pages and everybody else is gonna do, because it had to be, it had to be better. Why? No reason <laugh> like anxiety. Right. That that's it. Like, like wanting to please people, you know, be the best at things. It's like, how about you just be yourself and write a 12 page paper double space Times New Roman, like <laugh> get over yourself. And I I know that now.

Lucas:

Right. When you don't have to write papers anyway.

Christy:

Right. Exactly.

Lucas:

Yeah. It's great. <laugh> <laugh>. And so then like, moving on, like how low self-esteem can impact relationships. Ooh. It goes into like, a lot of people with low self-esteem need that continuous reassurance. And are asking their partner like, Hey, are we okay? Or do you love me? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, would you love me if I was a worm <laugh> sort of questions, right?

Christy:

Yeah. <Laugh> of course. Oh my gosh.

Lucas:

But because you have these feelings of being unworthy, you might over apologize for things because you're worried that, like you, people who have low self-esteem tend to think that like they are dating up or married up. And like, they're gonna leave you at any time because there's gotta be somebody who's better.

Christy:

Right, which also ends with people settling. If you don't have the confidence to realize that you are good enough, smart enough, and gosh aren't people like you, if somebody gives you even an inkling of attention and like love, you're like, oh my gosh, someone loves me and you don't really care who, and so you end up settling for something because you don't think you deserve more. Instead of realizing, no, we get to have standards and expectations. And marriage is a, I dunno if you know this marriage is a long time.

Lucas:

It yeah.

Christy:

Yeah. It's a long time or not. If it's not a healthy marriage, then get out. Like sooner than later. Um, but marriage can be a long time. So like set expectations, get to know somebody. Make sure that your needs are being met too. But a lot of times if you don't have the self-esteem to demand that you are, that your needs and wants are taken care of, that you get in a power control situation and then your relationship is never gonna be healthy and it's going to be toxic.

Lucas:

Right. And at so toxic and then at worse abusive. Right. 'cause people with lower self-esteem tend to be more vulnerable to those sorts of things. Because of what you're talking about. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Christy:

One of my favorite reasons that people come into therapy, they'll say, I have found someone and I think they're the person for me, and I need to make sure that I've worked on myself before I get, before I venture into this rel like this long-term relationship with somebody. I'm like, <laugh>, slay <laugh>. Yes. Let's work. Let's, let's get you in a good place so you can be a healthy person for your partner. Like, what an incredible thing to do.

Lucas:

Yeah. I think that that's great.

Christy:

Green flag.

Lucas:

Yes. And also doing that when you're having kids Oh, for sure. Working on yourself. Right. That's, I think that's the best thing we can do as parents is to work on ourselves for our kids. Say more

Christy:

About that.

Lucas:

Well, because if we are working on ourselves, we're not bringing our past stuff.

Christy:

Oh, really?

Lucas:

Right? Yeah. And because we all have baggage, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. We all have things that even if we had the greatest parents in the world, we, we all mess up sometimes, right. As parents.

Christy:

Life happens. Yeah.

Lucas:

And there might be some of those accidental messages that were given to us or whatever. Or in the most, like maybe you suffered some pretty extreme stuff. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Really toxic relationships, abusive stuff. We need to get, we need to talk through that. We need to like work through that stuff so that we're not bringing that into our kids because you will

Christy:

Oh yeah.

Lucas:

You will mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it's, it'll be accidental, I hope. And, but I can't, I mean, even the best of like things that just like my mom would say, that would just drive me nuts as a kid. I have quoted her verbatim and then I'm, I I say it, I'm like, oh my God, my mom just came out of me.

Christy:

<laugh> Opened my mouth and my mom came out.

Lucas:

Right? And, and it's in those instances, like that example, it's more funny. But I've talked to a lot of parents who are like, oh my gosh, I did the thing my dad did. And now it's not okay. I don't ever want to do that again. Right.

Christy:

And we, we've talked a lot of times about how parents are more likely to get help for their children than they are for themselves. Without realizing that getting help for themselves is getting help for their children.

Lucas:

Yeah. Can you say that louder for the people in the back <laugh>?

Christy:

I said getting help for themselves is getting help for their children. And, and it's so true. Like, I don't know if you've seen on TikTok right now, there's like a viral trend that's going on where people your age, because I'm old, are like saying some of the old school things that people used to say to their kids and then having their kids finish 'em. So like, they'll say, I brought you into this world and typically it'd be I can take you out. So the kids now are saying, they'll say, I brought you into this world and then they have haven't finished it and the kids are like, so you can love me. And it's like.

Lucas:

I love that.

Christy:

That's so cute. Yeah. It's, it's a super fun trend. 'cause it's like when we know better, we do better. Right? Like that's why generations are generations. Right. 'cause we, we learn more, we change the way that we approach parenting. We change the way that we do stuff. But being aware of how your childhood or how things that even that happened in your adulthood with relationships or whatever the case may be, can impact your kid. Like go to therapy and sort it out. It's kind of fun.

Lucas:

It, I mean, not always fun. It's hard work. Sometimes. But it does, it is so worth it. And it feels so good. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and you'll just be a better parent for it and your, your kids will be benefiting from it. Which is the most important thing. So we've talked a bit about like professionally how your low, how low self-esteem can impact. Um, but like some more examples of that would be like, like in a meeting, like if you have something to say, you don't because you maybe worried, you're worried you're gonna sound dumb or it's not going to be appropriate. Or whatever, or people are gonna judge you for it. Or just, I mean, overall just feeling like you don't fit in or you're just doubting yourself in everything that you do.

Christy:

Yeah. I remember when I first started here and we would sit in meetings and I would be like, 'cause you just worry that people think you don't know what you're doing. Right. And I remember thinking, I'm gonna say this sentence. I can say it. I know I can say it. I I can say it. And like, finally you'd get it out. And then I would look at everybody to make sure they don't think that I'm an idiot. And I was like, okay. Okay. It's, and sometimes that's what you have to do to build confidence is like, do something that is making you anxious. Say like, contribute to the meeting, contribute to whatever activity is going on. And you'll realize that when you contribute, you didn't lose your job. Nobody thought you were stupid. Some people might have even thought it was a good idea. And that builds your confidence. So even though it's hard to do, it's hard to do, it's hard to build that confidence. And it comes really quickly once you start realizing that even if you do mess up or you say something dumb. So

Lucas:

Right.

Christy:

<laugh> Like, now I don't care what I say ever.

Lucas:

We know <laugh>.

Christy:

I know. And sometimes stupid stuff comes outta my mouth and I'm like, I know that that was dumb. Like I'll sometimes, and I try, I and I try to do that for, especially with new people coming in. 'cause I know how it feels to be new. Like, and you try, we both try really hard to do this, to be like, there are no dumb, no dumb questions, there's no dumb whatever. No. Nobody brings an umbrella to a brainstorm. Like we just, let's just get it all out there. I promise you. Like this is a safe space. And I think that that's important for, to work in a place like that that fosters that kind of development in people. Because if you can't get your employees to be confident in the work that they do, they're gonna underperform.

Lucas:

Right? Absolutely. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So I think this is a perfect segue into like how to make it. Yeah. Just killing it. How to improve your self-esteem. Right. And you started talking about like just do the thing. Right. Much easier said than done by the way, but it's, when you start doing it, you're gonna start showing your brain that it's okay. And that it's not as scary. It's essentially exposure therapy. But one of the things when I'm working with somebody specifically on, on self-esteem, there's a couple of questions that I like to ask to really try to narrow down for them and identify what's going on. And so the first thing we do is I want to identify what you have low self-esteem about specifically because we all have like, it might be an overarching low self-esteem, but there's really like some pinpointed things typically mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Lucas:

That we can target. And so then identify what it is that you want to think about yourself mm-hmm <affirmative>. In that situation. So what's the goal? Right. And then what would it look like if you were like that? If you did think about that. Right. So then what that does is then we identify what are the things that we just gotta go do. Right. So let's just go act like we are confident in those situations, not overcompensating. But like if it's, if I was more confident, I would share my thoughts in a meeting. Okay. So then that's, that's our goal, our target behavior is that we're gonna tar share something in a meeting. And it might be something small like Christy just talked about like that one sentence mm-hmm <affirmative>. To maybe we're doing a full-blown presentation. Right. But that's a way to just, I start identifying some very practical things. You can start practicing day to day to try to increase that self-esteem. Because the more you do the thing that you have low self-esteem about and the more success you have with that, the higher self-esteem you're gonna feel in that situation.

Christy:

Yeah. This is, I remember a time when I was completely terrified of public speaking, which I feel like is a very common fear of people, whether it's a presentation at school or whatever. The only way to that I ever got better at that was to do public speaking and realize that nobody was like, oh my gosh, she's an idiot. Well, and if they did, they didn't tell me. And and most of the time they're not gonna tell you. So, okay, cool. Safe space. Right? <laugh> that was gonna tell you you were awful at what you did. So then, and I know that you were much the same. I remember a time when you were, you had to go on the radio one time and you're like, I don't wanna do it. I don't wanna do it.

Lucas:

Oh my gosh. I remember that.

Christy:

I do too. <laugh>.

Lucas:

It was such a sudden. They're like, in an hour, can you do it?

Christy:

It was a Friday afternoon.

Lucas:

Yeah. I was home.

Christy:

I know.

Lucas:

I think I was painting.

Christy:

I remember it so well.

Lucas:

Can you go on the radio? And like, I Sure. <laugh>

Christy:

And, and, and now if you were to ask on the radio, you're like, yeah, okay, whatever. It's not, it's not a big deal. But you have to do, you have to do the things that you wanna overcome in order to realize that they're not scary. 'cause the unknown is always scary. That's, I mean, that's just what it is. But once you get in, once the unknown becomes the known, you're like, ah, look at that. And a very important part of all of that is taking a look at your journey, remembering where you started. And looking at you did that like you did that.

Lucas:

Right. Yeah.

Christy:

And that's incredible.

Lucas:

Yeah. And celebrating that. The, going back to the like the coaching stuff. Right. So it is, it's not wrong to look at what you can do better and how you can improve.

Christy:

No, absolutely not.

Lucas:

Unless you're not celebrating the wins along the way. You have to do that. You have to celebrate that. I, I think about when I, I did marathon training.

Christy:

And the It's terrible, isn't it?

Lucas:

Oh, it sucks. It's the worst ever. And also the greatest thing ever, but like was I, was I quote unquote fast? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. No. Like I, whatever, but like holy cow, I went from walking and barely able to do that to like running a marathon. Like that's insane.

Christy:

And you killed it.

Lucas:

Right. But if I had just looked at what I could do better and like all the people that were passing me, that would feel like a failure. When that was an amazing success. So.

Christy:

And that was the one thing that, and it's not just with running. I always default to running because running is really hard for me. And the fact that I do it in general is like whatever. But I always said, but I'm out here doing it. Like everybody else is cheering and that's great. 'cause spectating is a, spectating is a sport. <laugh>. But like I am out here and I am living my life and I am running a marathon, so I don't care what anybody thinks about my time because I'm doing the thing. Right. Insert that anywhere. Like anything that's, that's slaying your dragon. Like what whatever it is that you wanna do, you're doing it. And that's better than not.

Lucas:

Absolutely. Yep. And we will get to a spot where like, it's even a little bit better in the future, but like right now you're this look at where you've come from.

Christy:

Right. Exactly.

Lucas:

We have to remember that. It's like focusing on, going back to the whiteboard analogy, you are focusing on all of the white space. On purpose. Because you have to do it on purpose.

Christy:

Yeah. You have to take the first step. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. You can't run a marathon until you take a first step. A a a personal thing right now that I'm like, I am making sourdough. If you go back to our initial <laugh>, our initial podcast, our very first one, it was, is it just me or is it like...

Lucas:

Trying New Things?

Christy:

Trying New Things. Is It Hard To Try New Things? And I was like, I'm not ever cooking. Like absolutely not. I'm not doing it. But I got down sourdough bread talk and I was like, that actually looks kind of fun. And I was terrified to fail because I don't even think I know how to turn my oven on. Like that's where we were. But I was like, if I want this delicious looking bread, I have to do it 'cause no one's gonna make it for me. So, and my husband, because this is why you, it's good to choose the right partner is like, just try it. I said, I don't even have a pot. He's like, then buy one <laugh>. And I was like, oh, good plan. Okay.

Lucas:

Great idea.

Christy:

Yeah. So I mean.

Lucas:

Good job, Scott.

Christy:

I mean, step one, Amazon, buy the sourdough stuff, step two, get some flour and some water and you know, throw caution to the wind. Is every lo-fi make amazing? No, I've thrown some of those away. <laugh> those ones don't get posted on Instagram <laugh>. But the ones that come out great. Are, are amazing. And I am just like, the fact that I'm doing it and I, and I put something in the oven and it comes out like as a full thing.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

What?

Lucas:

Yeah. Like when you were like almost burning the house down before.

Christy:

Well, I have honestly set fires in my oven. Like that's not, I'm not, that's not an exaggeration. <laugh> like I am, I am not, I haven't really expanded my skills outside of sourdough, but like, it's, it's so fun and it's, I are they the best loaves ever? Probably not, but are they?

Lucas:

Yes they are.

Christy:

But are they loaves that I can bring into my coworkers.

Lucas:

And we all beg you to keep doing it.

Christy:

And it's the, and it's, it's so fun. And it's like I would never have that experience if I would've just been a weenie and said, that's too hard.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

You know.

Lucas:

It's just taking that first step and just giving it a shot. Yeah. Absolutely. I think when you have those positive moments, like you just described, like sometimes it's really helpful to write those down. And then in a place where you can constantly look at that mm-hmm <affirmative>. And be like, I did really well right here and I'm really proud of this moment. For those times where maybe it doesn't go according to plan when you have to throw a loaf away. Right. That can feel disheartening. And remind you of some of those negative beliefs that you used to have about yourself. When it comes to cooking. So then you have this, these pictures, this documentation of all this success that you've had. You can look back on that and be like, oh I am, I'm doing okay with this.

Christy:

Yeah, that's fine.

Lucas:

Yeah. It's gonna be alright.

Christy:

Even, even Steph Curry air balls from time to time.

Lucas:

Right.

Christy:

That's okay.

Lucas:

Exactly.

Christy:

Not everyone can be the star.

Lucas:

<laugh>. Not all the time.

Christy:

Not all the time.

Lucas:

So, and then also catching those negative thoughts when they come in and trying to correct them. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like, even if it's like checking the facts, is this even true? Sometimes we just have super irrational thoughts. Not your fault, but we gotta do something about it. We can't just let it sit there. So, and then practice, practice, practice. At whatever it is that you need to get, that you want to get better at and feel more confident about. Right?

Christy:

I had this conversation with somebody yesterday actually. 'cause came in talking about how they wanted to be successful. Like, that was the goal when I first met them was like, I just want to do all of these things and be all of these things. And it was like, okay, but let's start with who you are. Because when you figure out who you are and, and you can grow your confidence, you can grow your self-esteem building on who you are as a person, the success will come. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like that's very secondary. And it's like, and then as they've worked on themselves in therapy, they've oddly, without trying have become more successful, and I know that it's because they've become more confident in who they are as a person. That they're like, oh, I can do it. Oh yes. Then they go in and they're, and it's like shifting your focus to working on you versus what you have and what your title is, are two very different things.

Lucas:

Yeah, I think success is more of like a lifestyle rather than like just a destination if you will. So like you can, people who are quote unquote successful don't always feel that way. Right. And whereas people who maybe aren't what would be considered traditionally successful, like having a lot of money or like mm-hmm <affirmative>. Accolades or whatever feel like they are mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because of just their mindset. And how they, how they view themselves and they've been working on their self-esteem and all those things. So you can, you can feel that success without actually achieving whatever it is that like end result is. Like it never stops, if you will. There's not like a, a destination.

Christy:

Yeah. And I think, I think in, we talk about social media a lot, but it's, we have to the comparison game with social media that wrecks people's self-esteem because they will look at, they're looking at people that are, you're looking at highlight reels, you're looking at people who have filters or doing whatever, and it's like, what's wrong with me that I don't have these things or I don't look like that, or I don't have this water bottle or that water bottle, whatever it might be. It's like, it just kills people's self-esteem. The comparison game is just wrecking.

Lucas:

Comparison is the thief of joy.

Christy:

It is. And, and it's like everybody knows it. They know it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. But they still go through and do it.

Lucas:

Yeah. Still fall victim to that.

Christy:

Yeah, and their, their rational brain can say, I know that this is a filter. I know that their lives aren't perfect. I know that, but you can't unsee it. And so it's just, it's so hard. Social media makes things so hard.

Lucas:

It does. We always want to encourage you to ask the question, is it just me? You're likely not alone. And there is always a way to help. If anything we've talked about today resonates with you, please reach out.

Christy:

Do you have a topic you'd like us to talk about? Message us. We'd love to hear from you. And that's like for real. Drop us a, drop us a, a text message, a um, a dm as they say <laugh>. We have an email, isitjustme@dakotaranch.org. Just let us know what you want us, we'll talk about anything.

Lucas:

Yeah, we would love to hear what you guys want us to talk about. And don't forget to share us with your friends and family.

Announcer:

Thanks for listening to today's episode of Is It Just Me? To learn more or make an appointment for psychiatric or mental health services at Dakota Family Services, go to dakotafamilyservices.org or call 1 800 2 0 1 64 95.

Other Podcast Episodes