About the Hosts

Christy Wilkie provides therapy for children and adolescents, ages 5-25, who have complex behavioral health issues. She combines her extensive clinical expertise with a belief in kids, and has a unique ability to find and develop their strengths. She works hard to be an ideal therapist for her clients, doing what is best to fit their needs.

Lucas Mitzel provides therapy for children, adolescents, and adults, ages 5 - 30. He believes building relationships with clients is the most important piece of successful therapy. He loves what he does because it allows him to walk next to people he would never have met had he chosen a different profession, as they work to make amazing life changes. He has the honor of meeting people at their worst, all while watching them grow into the people they’ve always wanted to be.

Transcript
Is Setting Boundaries Hard?

Featuring Christy Wilkie, LCSW, and Lucas Mitzel, LCSW, Dakota Family Services

Announcer:

This episode of, Is It Just Me, is brought to you by Dakota Family Services, your trusted partner in mental and behavioral health, whether you need in-person or virtual care. The team of professionals at Dakota Family Services is dedicated to supporting children, adolescents, and adults in their journey to better mental health.

Christy:

Disrupting life patterns and life routines that aren't serving you.

Lucas:

It's how we feel that keeps us going.

Christy:

You can be a masterpiece in a work of art all at the same time.

Lucas:

Hey everyone, I'm Lucas.

Christy:

And I'm Christy.

Lucas:

And you're listening to the, Is It Just Me podcast.

Christy:

Where we aim to provide education, decrease the stigma and expel some myths around mental health.

Lucas:

Christy, is it just me or is setting boundaries really hard, sometimes?

Christy:

It's, setting boundaries is extraordinarily hard sometimes, and it is something that I help people do everyday.

Lucas:

What, even, like how would you define boundaries?

Christy:

Ooh, interesting question. I would define boundaries as, as expectations you set or limits you set that help you protect your mental health, your peace, your physical health, and make sure that you don't get taken advantage of. But there's so many kinds of, oh, I'm sure you probably have this in your notes, but there's so many kinds of boundaries, right? And so it's like, I feel like that's like the general, the general version. But that can take so many forms.

Lucas:

I 100% agree. That was a very good definition that you just pulled out of your head.

Christy:

Thank you.

Lucas:

Yeah, I liked that. So then what, like, why, why do you feel like it's, so, you kind of touched on that just a little bit there at the end, like, not getting taken advantage of, but like, and it's, I suppose it would be different as to why it's important in every category, right? But in general, in a general sense, why, why do you think that they're so important?

Christy:

I think that they're important because there's so many things that we allow people to do or take from us that isn't given back. And when you're constantly giving and giving and giving in any form and a, you don't realize you're being taken advantage of because you maybe don't know your worth or you don't know that you can set a boundary and people aren't going to hate you for it. <laugh>, it's, it's very easy to get sucked into this being almost your whole personality. It's like, well give it to whoever they'll do it, you know? Give it. They'll do whatever you ask them to do.

Lucas:

You know nothing about that <laugh>

Christy:

No. Super good at saying no. But you become, it almost becomes a part of your personality, and it's like you don't wanna be that person. 'cause then that leads to burnout and not in every sense of the word.

Lucas:

Right. And it, I think a big piece of boundaries is that it helps you maintain a level of self-respect. Because if you're able to say no, if you're able to ask people for things, 'cause boundaries aren't just about saying no to things or, or telling people to back off or whatever. Like sometimes it's, you're asking for what you deserve from someone. Right. And you maintain a level of self-respect, which is where it's kind of like self-esteem. But it's where the way I like to put it for people is like when you wake up in the morning and you, if you reflect on your day, you have self-respect if like you're proud of what you did or your choices.

Christy:

Yeah. Totally.

Lucas:

So it helps you maintain that or have that.

Christy:

Yeah. I also feel like, and the people pleasers out there are not going to like that. I say this and are maybe gonna feel a little attacked, <laugh>, but there is a very, I'm not gonna say everyone, but the majority of people who are people pleasers really do suffer from having a low self-esteem. Or having low confidence and feeling like they need to do all of these things in order to be worthy or to earn someone's praise or be validated in whatever way. And, and so also like figuring out like self-respect is important, but also figuring out your self-confidence and realizing you get to set a boundary. You are worthy of setting a boundary so that people don't take advantage of you.

Lucas:

Right. And it is okay if they don't have to like it.

Christy:

No.

Lucas:

That's, and I think that's one of the biggest things is that we, we, especially people pleasers like myself, I don't wanna like make waves ruffle any feathers, anything like that ever. And so the idea of like, if I have to, if I feel like I should really say no to something, like I don't want you to be upset with me. And the thing about it is that they don't have to like it. But they do need to accept it.

Christy:

I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you a plug for growth here because you've, you've gotten much better. I appreciate that. At setting boundaries.

Lucas:

I've been working on that.

Christy:

I know you have. And I, I was thinking this because I think when, when you are that person for so long and then you kind of maybe go to therapy or you, something happens in your life and you try to, you step into your self-worth and you're like, you start to change things, you'll notice that maybe the people in your life end up changing. Because they don't, they maybe don't like that you're finding your worth and that you're standing up for yourself and that you're setting a boundary or an expectation. And you know what, bye.

Lucas:

Right.

Christy:

When if people only wanna be around you because they know that they could take advantage of you, or that you're gonna constantly do things for them without them putting in a lot of energy back, they might duce out, and that's okay.

Lucas:

Yeah. And were they really there for you? Or did they really love you like they said they did, or care about you like they said they did. If that's all it took, you know.

Christy:

Yes you standing up for yourself. Like you're your real friends, the real people in your life who know you and see you and know, you know, whatever. They should be applauding that and be like, heck yeah. You set a boundary. Good for you. That had to be really hard for you to do <laugh>, you know?

Lucas:

Yeah. If I like, if, if Christy sets a boundary with me saying like, no, I like, I don't like that you said that, or I don't want you to do that, or I really need this from you. Like, oh, sounds good. Like, yeah. You don't, and one thing I think is really common, especially in this area of the world, is we always feel like we need to explain ourselves mm-hmm <affirmative>. And like defend our decisions. And you see, you could see this like even just in public, like if you're wa like a big crowd or something like that, I dunno if you've ever noticed this, but if somebody like randomly turns around, they explain to you why they're turning around. You know, like, I just, I need to find the bathroom. Whatever. Like, okay, <laugh>, I don't, I don't know you.

Christy:

I don't care where you're going.

Lucas:

But we, we always feel like we need to explain ourselves. And there's like there this one time with my brother, shout out to Ethan if you're listening to this <laugh>. Um, we were having a conversation and there was this, we were just talking about something and he just didn't wanna cover a certain topic or whatever anymore. Like he just wanted to be done with it. And he said that to me, he set a boundary, which is, was very difficult for a lot of people in my family to set boundaries. Um, but we'll probably get to that later <laugh>. Uh, but he did that and immediately tried to back it up, why or whatever. And I thankfully was in a very, like, I had a very healthy response. I think so, good to me. But I said, buddy, you don't have to explain that to me. Like, it doesn't matter if I dislike it or if I think that you're incorrect or whatever, I have to accept that you said that to me, so you don't need to sit here and explain it to me.

Christy:

Right. Yes. I think that over explaining in general is a thing that we do when you set any sort of boundary where it's like, you know what? I'm not coming home for Easter because we've got this going on, this going on, this coming on, this going on, and I just have to do this and I have to be at work on Monday. And it's like, you don't have to overexplain yourself. When you set a boundary, you can just be like, you know what? It just isn't, it's just not for me. And that's okay.

Lucas:

And so we we're talking a little bit about like different areas where boundaries can be. I think we've been covering a little bit about relationships, but one, so let's just continue in there. 'cause that's kind of where we're at right now. But I think one of the most popular areas where we talk about boundaries in my office is what I call fight rules. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I, when I'm talking about fight rules, I'm talking about how we argue in a healthy and productive manner. 'cause every relationship's gonna have moments of conflict. And it's really easy to run into situations where maybe you are feeling hurt or you somebody says something or does something in a certain way. 'cause we all have baggage that we bring into things. Right. <laugh> <laugh>. And, and so it's, it's really healthy to set up expectations or boundaries or fight rules mm-hmm <affirmative>. With your, with your loved ones. And so just some easy examples of that would be like, that I hope everybody has, would be like, no hitting.

Christy:

Oh, that's..

Lucas:

You know.

Christy:

Okay. We're starting there.

Lucas:

We're universal. Yeah. Let's start at the, let's start at the floor. You know, maybe no yelling. Or name calling. One that's really big for me that isn't big for everybody is I don't, I walking away mm-hmm. From me, mid conversation is a really big trigger for me. Mm-hmm. Because if I feel like you don't care what I have to say. Now, so the boundary there is just let me know if you need to take a break. Let me know if you, like, if you're just gonna the bathroom or something, like, just let me know what's happening. Mm-hmm. Because if I just think you're walking away from me, I'm really hurt mm-hmm <affirmative>. now. So that's a boundary that I've set in my marriage. And it's gone. Great.

Christy:

Yeah. I think another one that is so common is interrupting. That drives me absolutely nuts. Like if you can't wait for me to, like, even if you, I don't care if you have to take notes while I'm talking to you so you don't forget what you have to say. I can totally get that. 'cause thoughts come in and they go and you're like, oh, I was gonna say something to that point and I totally forgot. Take a note, but let me finish thought. Like, <laugh>, and that's in, that's in my friendships, that's in my marriage. That's, that's at work. Like, don't interrupt me. And I don't think that that's asking a lot. And I, and I think this is where, this is not, I shouldn't go here, but I am. But I think as women, we're often talked over frequently and I think especially for me as like growing up and as you like get older, you think about all the times when someone did interrupt you or they took your emotional property or your intellectual property, I guess is a better way to say it, and then present it as theirs. That's breaking a boundary. If I, if I, if I give somebody an idea and then they go and present it to somebody else and they're like, as their own, when you got it from me and I don't circle back to say, Hey, that was my intellectual property that you just presented as your own and that hurt my feelings, you know? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like, I think just years of that makes me feel like I don't wanna be interrupted.

Lucas:

Uh, yeah. Understandable. And just it's kind of annoying.

Christy:

Yeah <laugh>, it really is. <laugh>, so

Lucas:

There's that. With parents and children mm-hmm <affirmative>. There. I think that it's really important to have very clear boundaries, even as simple as some parents are totally cool with their kids, calling them by their first name, and other parents not so much. And so my mom was very much, you are going to call me mom. I remember one day I called her Jen, and that did not go well.

Christy:

No. Jen, if you're listening, you should see my face at the fact that he thought that was a good idea.

Lucas:

<laugh>. Right. I was much younger

Christy:

And stupider.

Lucas:

Well, as we all are when we're little. But, but I think that that's a, a really common boundary. Another thing that's going around right now, especially on TikTok, I don't know if you've seen this, is parents sitting with their kids and saying, I am not your friend. I'm your, and then they finish by saying like, parent or mom or dad or whatever. Right. And that's just, that's another boundary.

Christy:

Right. I think you think parents too, like there are some really easy boundaries to set as parents, right. Don't touch the hot stove.

Lucas:

Yes.

Christy:

I mean.

Lucas:

Solid advice.

Christy:

It's, it's a physical, physical boundary and one that, it doesn't take a whole lot of thought, but when it comes to parenting, especially as kids get older, you know, for kids to be like, you know what, I'm not comfortable when you come into my room without knocking. Like, that's it, it takes so much courage for kids to set a boundary with their parents. And most of the time parents are actually really cool with it. They just kind of forget that their kids are growing up. Because you always kind of see them as being little, you know? And so it's always good as a parent if, if a child sets a boundary that is age appropriate to respond in a way that's like, I'm proud of you for setting that boundary, thank you for telling me. Because if you can reinforce that it is cool to set a boundary and that it is someone's gonna listen to you and that your feelings are validated when they're young and growing up, that is gonna set them up to have super healthy relationships as they get older.

Lucas:

Absolutely. I'll never forget when my, my son, when we were potty training, obviously when you're learning all of that, right? Like you're, you're very involved with your kid learning how to go potty and all that stuff. And then he, he got it down and then he's like, oh, I gotta go potty. So I'm following him in mm-hmm. Like I normally would. And he's like, daddy, no, I'm by my shut the door. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, oh, oh, we're here now <laugh>.

Christy:

This is what we're doing.

Lucas:

Sounds good, man. You know, but

Christy:

Super healthy boundary Ollie.

Lucas:

Absolutely. Yeah. And so it, it's very true for any kids who are listening. Like, we, we do forget that you guys are growing up because to us, you're just still these little kids.

Christy:

Right. I think of even one that causes some conflict in houses is curfews.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

Where maybe the boundary for a parent is, or the expectation expectations versus boundaries. They're different, but they're friends I wanna be home at. They want you to be home at 10 and you wanna stay out till 11. Like how do you have a conversation with somebody about that? Like, why do you want the extra hour? Like, what's, what are you gonna do? What, what can I do to make you feel comfortable with me having the extra hour? Like being able to have a healthy conversation even about a boundary or expectation, especially between kids and parents is like so good without always being the iron fist to be like, this is what I said and this is what it is, and I don't care what you think.

Lucas:

Right <laugh> being open to those conversations is really important. And it's in figuring out like for the person who's being, having their boundaries questioned or challenged, it's, it's good to know what is the core issue here. Because sometimes we can modify how the boundary is set, but still respecting that core issue. If it's just that I want you in, you know, asleep at a certain time or whatever, or if it's that I just want you to know that you're safe or something. Like there could be a different means of making sure that that core issue is being handled mm-hmm <affirmative>. While modifying what we're doing.

Christy:

Right. I also think, like one that I talk to kids about frequently are divorced parents. Where

Lucas:

Oh, this is a good one where I think I know where you're going

Christy:

<laugh>. Where one parent will maybe talk poorly about the other parent or will talk poorly about the other parent's house or spouse or whatever that might be. And it really bothers children. Because they love both of their parents most of the time, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so for a kid to be like, you know what, I don't like it when you don't talk very nicely about my mom. You know, like that the, again, the courage that it takes for a kid to finally get to that point where they are able to say that. And also children who are listening, you have every right to set that boundary with your parents.

Lucas:

Absolutely.

Christy:

Because anything that protects your, your relationships with the people that you love in your life, if, if that means setting a boundary, and I promise you nine times outta 10, the parent will be like, crap, I'm sorry. And that is the correct response for the most part to just be like, you're right. I, I do need to get better about that. Thank you for bringing it up instead of coming back and fighting it. You know? Because it really is, that's a very appropriate boundary in every situation.

Lucas:

Yeah. And if you know parents, if you're listening and, and you maybe have been guilty of that and your kids haven't brought that up, just know that even though they might not be displaying distress, it is very difficult for them to hear that. You talking about their sec, you know, you and their other parent are like two of the most important people in their life. Two of the people they love the most in the whole universe. Yeah. And we have one person talking poorly about the other and that causes a lot of distress. And they're not gonna maybe show that in front of you, but I promise we see it in our office. And they're maybe scared to say something 'cause they don't wanna get in trouble or make you feel bad. Or whatever.

Christy:

Kids just want their parents to be happy. And, and, and they don't wanna cause you more to stress. A lot of them don't. Like they want, they'll do anything to not cause more conflict. So they just keep quiet and things bother them and they let it go.

Lucas:

Right. They might even agree with you. Just to avoid a conflict. And when in reality they're not okay. With what's going on,

Christy:

<laugh>. Right. And I always tell people you can, that you can be married to someone who's not a great partner, but that is a great parent. You know? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Those rules are very different. And you have to allow them to participate in those.

Lucas:

Right. And just leave that stuff between you guys. Just let's not involve the kids. At all. So something to think about. <laugh>,

Christy:

<laugh>, food forethought. Yeah.

Lucas:

Yeah. No, that was a really, thank you for bringing that up. Yeah. That's a really good one.

Christy:

Hey, thanks.

Lucas:

Yeah. <laugh>, how about professionally?

Christy:

Oh, oh yeah. <laugh>. Well, I think, I think it's something that, I think it's, again, it's something that people struggle with, especially when you opened up with this, when you say that you might be completely entitled and correct in what your boundary is or what you're asking for, I think historically people have a hard time knowing their worth at work and advocating for that.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

You know what I mean? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or like,

Lucas:

I like that.

Christy:

Seeing that maybe because, 'cause people will know you'll do it. That people are piling stuff on top of you or you know, and I see that with people in my office all the time where they're like, I'm doing this, I'm doing this, I'm doing this, I'm doing this and this. So that is outside of your job expectations. And if you keep saying that you're gonna take on all of these extra things and you're not asking for extra pay or you're not asking for time off, or you're not asking for something or you're not think, you don't think that you're allowed to say no to do things that are outside of what you're being paid to do, like, then that's a bigger issue. Like you have every right to not have to do all of these things that they're asking you to do when they're not asking it to anybody else.

Lucas:

Yeah. And it's easy to fall into those traps

Christy:

It is.

Lucas:

Right. I think a really big one that happens, especially in our field, is the boundary between work and home.

Christy:

Oh, sure. Oh that's a good one.

Lucas:

And how people can take a lot of their work home. Maybe they're looking at emails or answering phone calls or coming in when they're maybe not supposed to to get some more stuff done. Or doing some extra, some of those favors, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. For people. And you're not getting paid extra for that. You're just doing it. That's one of the first things that I, when I work with some, a new clinician doing supervision for them, is I really harp on setting those boundaries early. 'cause it's much harder to get rid of that habit mm-hmm. Than it is to just set boundaries right away and prevent it from happening.

Christy:

Yeah. Well, and when you talk about boundaries between work and home, especially in this field, we're bound to confidentiality. It's not like I can go home and like talk to Scott about, you know, all these things happen in my day and I don't want to, because I take people's information very seriously and that is mine, but it's gotta, it's gotta go somewhere. Right? Like, there's a lot of energy and so it's like, where within my boundaries, where can I decompress and where can I, you know, go express out instead of keeping everything in because it's super emotional. Like what we do can be a very emotionally taxing, I guess. I mean, I love, we love it.

Lucas:

Absolutely.

Christy:

But it's also like, it takes a little energy, you know.

Lucas:

Yes.

Christy:

But it's also not, it's in, in anybody's job. It's so, it's also not cool to go home and like all you do is talk about work.

Lucas:

Right? Yeah. And having that, having that space, like especially in our field, like at work to be able to get that stuff out, but then also understanding that it's as professionals, like it's okay to be like, I'm not in a space to hear that right now. You know?

Christy:

Oh. Yes.

Lucas:

Which that is very difficult for, us to do with each other, but it's super like, because there's a lot of stuff going on. And we all have our own personal stuff that's happening. Maybe like our batteries are drained and so like, just saying like, Hey, I'm, I can't, I can't handle that today. And it's okay. The next thing that was about to come out of my mouth was, sorry, <laugh>, you don't have to apologize for boundaries.

Christy:

You preach that all of the time.

Lucas:

I know, but it's so automatic. Right. Where we just apologize for setting boundaries. And that was a hypothetical situation and I automatically was about to say sorry, like, that's crazy.

Christy:

Oh my gosh. Or I, a boundary that I've set with my husband and he's, he very much knows this about me. <laugh> is that when I come home, I need an hour, don't talk to me. Like, I just need to decompress. I need to catch up on my text messages, I wanna talk to my friends. I need to like clear out my phone. I need to watch some tiktoks. I wanna crush some candy. I wanna maybe watch a show on the food network, stretch and fold some bread, you know, like stuff, your basic stuff. And then he'll, he'll be like, alright, you good now? I'm like, yes, I'm fine. You know? But, but, and he, but he respects that because he knows like I, if, if you try to talk to me right when I get home, I'm a nice person, but not then. <laugh>, <laugh>

Christy:

Not then I'm not, the other thing I think of too is that sometimes we feel super guilty about is, I mean, maybe I'm just, this is just me. Like, I'll make plans a week ahead of time with like a friend for happy hour after work or something, or whatever activity it might be. And then it gets to be the day. And I'm like, I can't do that today. I love my friend, but like, I'm not gonna be the best company and I, for me to text and say, Hey, I just can't do it today.

Lucas:

It's super, super valuable and important.

Christy:

Its, yes. And, and I've gotten better at not feeling bad about that because I, I really do like to see people. But there are some days when you leave here and it's just like, whew.

Lucas:

Got nothing left.

Christy:

No. And, and I think that that's the case for a lot of jobs. And so if like this feeling obligated, Ooh, that's a,

Lucas:

Yeah, that's a gross feeling.

Christy:

That is a gross feeling. And when you start to do things because you feel obligated to do them, not because you want to do them, we maybe have to take a look at reestablishing some boundaries.

Lucas:

What a great segue into like, boundaries with mental health.

Christy:

Oh, look at that.

Lucas:

That was perfect.

Christy:

You're welcome.

Lucas:

We didn't plan that.

Christy:

No, I don't plan anything.

Lucas:

You're so good at this.

Christy:

I don't plan anything. <laugh>, <laugh>.

Lucas:

So I mean, you immediately were making me think of like if, for example, somebody who's struggling with depression. Right. One thing we tell them to do is like, Hey, we know that your depression is saying like, let's isolate avoid people. Um, so like go hang out with people. That being said, I think we talked about this mm-hmm <affirmative>. In our depression podcast. But it is okay to have a boundary where like, today I just can't do it. And today I just need to do some self-care. And you don't have to apologize or overexplain it or anything like that. Just being like, even if you had plans, like Christy was just talking about, Hey, I just need to stay home today. Now don't be surprised and I hope they do check on you.

Christy:

I was gonna say and just say, they're gonna be like, you okay bro.

Lucas:

Right. And just making sure everything's fine. You know, all of that stuff and so like that's good. We want that, but you don't need to feel guilty, for that.

Christy:

No. And you can do something that maybe isn't as peopley. Like, you can, you can pivot if you're feeling depressed and if you, if you like going and hanging out with a friend is too much, going out and sitting on your deck might be okay. You know, especially now, it's nice outside. Like you just kind of have to maybe pivot your expectation for yourself and that's great. But if you're not in the space to do it, it's okay to say no.

Lucas:

I think also, like another big one is trauma triggers.

Christy:

Oh yeah.

Lucas:

Comes up a lot mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and there are things that like, that might trigger some traumatic symptoms. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or just old memories or things like that. And I hope that you're going to therapy and working on those things. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. But in the meantime, if you, like, if you can't do a thing because it's just too hard to do that, it is okay. It is okay to have those boundaries.

Christy:

I have a lot of clients that have places. Like Target, like they just, something bad happened at Target and they can't go in there and Okay. Like even in therapy, which is what you should do if you're avoiding places like that as you should be in therapy. So we can help you not avoid Target. It's okay to set a boundary to say, Hey, I'd love to go shopping, but I'm not, I can't, I can't go in Target. Okay. Yeah.

Lucas:

Yeah. And the fact that, I mean, you're working on it, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And like, the goal is eventually to be able to be, to be there. But you're not there yet and you don't need to feel guilty about not being there yet. No. And so just, just know that that's okay. To set those. And if somebody is like really pushing you, it's okay to hold your ground. And that's, it's not okay when somebody is pushing you to break your boundary.

Christy:

I also think of anxiety because anxious people are absolutely awful at setting a boundary because what are, what are they gonna think of me? They're gonna hate me if I, if I set a boundary and I just, and I, and I tell them, no, I can't do that thing. Oh my God, they're never gonna ask me to do anything again. They're gonna think I'm, I'm not helpful. They're gonna think that I'm selfish, that I'm just in it for me. No. I just don't wanna pick up your package at the post office. Like, <laugh>, <laugh>.

Lucas:

That was oddly specific.

Christy:

<laugh>. I know because I, you know, I hate the post office.

Lucas:

I do.

Christy:

I hate the post office. So if someone, like, even if I was go, if the post office is on my way and they'd be like, Hey, I've gotta package the post office, can you just stop and get it? Nope. <laugh>, I sure can't. But there was a time in my life when I would've put myself in an uncomfortable position to make somebody else happy or please somebody else. Than just say, I'm not comfortable doing that. No.

Lucas:

Right.

Christy:

And now I'm not <laugh>. Now I will just say no. But I mean.

Lucas:

Hard pass.

Christy:

Yes. But there's a lot of times when I found myself, when I was younger, especially in really uncomfortable positions that I didn't wanna be in because I was worried that someone was gonna be mad at me, or they would think that I wasn't invested enough in something, or that I didn't care about them enough to go to a party after 6:00 PM. Who goes out after 6:00 PM nobody.

Lucas:

Not us.

Christy:

Not for sure. Not us. And I've really just gotten over that and I've set a boundary with, with people in my life. I was like, I am, I am great for lunch, I am good up until what? Five o'clock rolls run and I am at home and. And everybody in my life knows that. So that nobody asked me to do anything after five o'clock <laugh>.

Lucas:

Do you think it's possible to have too strict or too many boundaries?

Christy:

Yeah, I do. It depends on, there's a difference between setting a, between setting a boundary. <laugh>, I was gonna say I'm being a dictator, but kind of. And I, and the way that you set a boundary, I think is very different. And sometimes I think people set too strict of boundaries. And if you wanna do that, that's fine, but you might also alienate everybody in your life. If they're, if they're too strict.

Lucas:

Right.

Christy:

Does that make sense?

Lucas:

It does. And I think the key here is with both sides of the extreme, right? Is that if, if the boundaries or lack thereof are impacting your everyday life, whether it be like work life, school, home life, other relationships, friendships, whatever. If it's causing issues in there, then maybe we need to look at some things. Um, even if it's just causing you distress, maybe. 'cause everybody else is really happy that they could walk all over you, right? Yeah. But it just makes you feel really gross.

Christy:

Yeah. I have <laugh>, I've, I have clients sometimes who are just like, I, I like my job, but I really only work. I really only want, if I could just work three hours a day, that'd be great. Okay. Well you can go in and set a boundary with your boss that says, I only wanna work three hours a day. And they'll be like, no, <laugh>. Because that's ridiculous, like, that is, that's not setting a boundary. That's asking for like, I don't know what that is. You're asking for something that they're not paying you for. Like, you wanna work three hours a day but get paid for working eight, no.

Lucas:

Well, it goes up. I mean, we could say it goes up against their boundaries.

Christy:

Yeah.

Lucas:

Works both ways.

Christy:

Exactly. Yes. 100%. 'cause I don't know if you know this, but they pay you to come to work, right? Isn't that wild? And so like, like your time belongs to them when you're in, when you're in the building that you're in. That makes sense. The fact that you don't love to be there a, I don't know, find a different job maybe, or, or find something within wherever you work that works better for you. Maybe it's a different kind of job. Maybe there's whatever, but like, you can't go in and and set a Hmm. An irrational boundary

Lucas:

Right?

Christy:

Like that's not, that's just you being not, that's a different issue. That's not setting a boundary.

Lucas:

So how do you know the difference between like 'cause an irrational boundary, right? People are gonna push up against that. But also people who don't respect your boundaries, even if they are rational, we'll also push up against that. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So how do you determine the difference?

Christy:

That's a really good question. I think.

Lucas:

I'm full of those.

Christy:

I know. <laugh> I think it depends on the context that you're talking about, right? Like, because some people can also gaslight you into thinking that your boundary is not appropriate. And I would say if you're finding yourself in those positions where you're not sure if your boundary is rational or irrational, but you think that it makes sense, but somebody else is thinking that it's not, you should probably come to therapy and like, let's talk about that because you need an objective third party to be like, this is what I asked for and this is what, this is how they responded am like, am I wrong? Like, am I asking for too much? Bounce it off of somebody who's not in the conflict. This doesn't have to be a conflict who's not. Well, if that's where we're at, kind of conflict and see what they think.

Lucas:

Yeah. I think a lot of people have a misunderstanding. This is a side note by the way, but.

Christy:

Oh, good.

Lucas:

Uh, uh, have a misunderstanding about therapy that like, we're paid to agree with you

Christy:

Oh yeah. No.

Lucas:

And I disagree with my clients all the time. They will be the first ones to tell you. I get into debates sometimes with my clients, it's really fun for me. And so if, if you come in and you're like, this is what I want, this is my boundary, do you think it's ridiculous? Like if it is ridiculous, I'm gonna tell you that it is very nicely. But we're gonna work on that.

Christy:

We're gonna help you look at that differently. Right. Because I get that all the time too. Where, and and they will say, they'll say, I know that you'll tell me if I'm wrong. It's, it's not about being wrong, it's about perceiving a situation differently than the other person in the situation. Everybody gets so hung up on, I wanna be right or I wanna be wrong, and we have to let go of that. It's not about, it's not a competition, it's not about being right or wrong. It's about perception. And a and about how two people can see the exact same situation very differently.

Lucas:

Right. And I will say like in a, in a non-abusive, non-toxic relationship where somebody's like, am am I expecting too much or is my boundary too too strict or whatever. It's typically just A, either A misunderstanding or B, there's, it's how you're implementing that boundary, not the core issue that we were talking about earlier. Like the value, that's the problem. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Now if we are talking about a value issue, like one person wants kids, the other one's boundaries, I don't want kids, then that's a bigger issue. Right? And we need to decide what we're gonna do with that.

Christy:

Right. We should probably discuss that before getting married.

Lucas:

I mean, I hope so, but you know. Yeah. So, but again, coming to therapy to work through those things and try to figure out what it is that's going on, like we can help you unravel that. And look at it objectively.

Christy:

And a lot of the times people come in and be like, am I asking for too much? And I was like, you're not asking for enough. You know, that's

Lucas:

Most of the conversations.

Christy:

Honestly, that is most of the conversations that we have because we tend to value our own self-worth as human beings. I don't have a made up statistic on that, but I'm assuming it's a good chunk of us. We, we underestimate what we are worth to other people. And once you can step in and find that in a rational way, not like a narcissistic way. But like in a, in a rational way where you, you, you find your worth, you understand that you have confidence that you know that you can say no, and that the people who really care about you are going to, they're still gonna like you. I got plenty of friends and I set plenty of boundaries. And, and if

Lucas:

Those are the best friendships,

Christy:

Actually Yeah. I know. Those are the ones that are like, okay, that, that No, we get it. And most of the time people do get it because I'm sure that there's been a day when somebody else has also, like, most of the time I feel like when I break plans, the other person is probably like, oh, thank god. <laugh>, I didn't really wanna go either. Right. You know, like, I'm exhausted too. So there's, there's that aspect of it too.

Lucas:

Yeah. Yeah. I one, so when we are looking at boundaries, like how do you, when you're working with somebody who really struggles to set boundaries, like how do you help them set those boundaries? Like how do you help them develop that?

Christy:

I I honestly almost always start at identity formation and self-confidence building, which we just recorded a podcast on not long ago. Um, because I, I think that asking someone to set boundaries without having the foundation in the framework is unfair.

Lucas:

That Yeah.

Christy:

You know, like. So you're, I'm sending someone in, into a, into a fight with like a squirt gun and that's not, that's not fair.

Lucas:

Right. That's quite the image <laugh>.

Christy:

I know like, go, go put out this fire with the squirt gun. So I I, I tend to typically start there because they have to be able to step into their worth and feel at least confident enough to realize that their boundary is appropriate and that it's valid and that they they can, and that they can, because this is the, this is the kicker. They also have to be able to manage the response from the person. That you're setting a boundary with. And so going in there and being like, no, girl, like you set that boundary and you do this and you, you know, whatever. When they're like, oh, hey, that's, I'm really scared. Like, I don't want to do that. Like, that's setting someone up for failure. And then that's a whole other issue I gotta deal with. We have to deal with. And so like we always, I, to me, I have to lay the foundation so that they go into it feeling at least confident enough that if somebody devalues their boundary or somebody says, I'm not, I'm not respecting that, that they can be like, well then, then this is what's gonna happen. You know, and, and having a plan for that.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

You know.

Lucas:

I Yes, I'm with you. And so then once we have that confidence and that self-respect and the self-esteem, like working on, so identifying what boundaries you wanna do, I like to look at, well what are your core values mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right. And what are some of your ethics or what are the things you care about? Right. And then we kind of build off of that. Like, okay, I value being respected. Cool. What does that look like to you? In the context of whatever relationship we're looking at here. Because it's gonna look different at work versus a romantic relationship with your parents, whatever. And then we just go from there. And then, so then it's how do we set that? What's that conversation gonna be like? And then I love that you mentioned preparing for whatever response mm-hmm <affirmative>. You're gonna have. 'cause it's not always gonna go well. But I will tell you this, that it, you are not responsible for their emotional reaction. And that is theirs to deal with. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, if you are setting an appropriate rational boundary, whatever they respond with emotionally, that's on them. And so.

Christy:

Yeah. We also talk a lot about, I, I'll do a lot of, like, before we go into like the big boundary thing, I'll do a deep dive into the relationship that we're working on and being like, is this a relationship that is meaningful to you? Is this a relationship that you wanna keep? In what ways is the relationship important to you? And, and what do we need to, what do we we want to change and what do we want to keep?

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

You know, and figuring that out. Because some, sometimes before we even get to the boundaries, we realize that this isn't a relationship that we wanna keep. So like, okay, then that's a different conversation. You know, protecting your piece and a different boundary. And so figuring out what you want out of the relationship, I think helps determine the boundary that you set. 'cause either the boundary is, I'm not talking to you again.

Christy:

<laugh>, or, or the boundary is, Hey, we're having some conflict in our relationship and I feel like you're taking advantage of me and I I need to say no more often. Like, and if, and their response is gonna determine what happens next. You know? Yeah. I think about this a lot. Oh, in terms of breakups mm-hmm <affirmative>. 'cause Wow. Those boundaries are wild. Because there are, there are several, I mean, and I'm just, I'm just having this right now during this time of year for some reason that some people break up and the boundary is, I can't talk to you right now because it's just too hard for me. Some people break up and they're like, well, I wanna still be friends. And you can try that for a while. And sometimes that'll work and sometimes that doesn't. But sometimes you have to go back and reevaluate the boundary that you set with each other to be like, yep, this either this is working or this isn't working. Or sometimes we end up with like this hybrid of like friends, but still romantic sort of situation and Wow, that can get messy. And then it's setting boundaries within relationships I think is like, that's hard.

Lucas:

It is. It's, it is really hard. And because

Christy:

When emotions are so high.

Lucas:

Right? Yes.

Christy:

Like, do you wanna get rid of this person? Not really because you've got this history, like you care about the person, you just know that they're not for you. So do you wanna like never talk to them again or do you wanna keep them?

Lucas:

Right. Worried about hurting their feelings? You know, you want it to be as painless as possible.

Christy:

Right. We talk all the time where people are like, I just wish that they would do something that makes it easier for me to break up with them. Like, I know they're not the right person for me, but there's like not a thing. And so

Lucas:

If they would just hit me.

Christy:

Yeah. If they was, or if they just would cheat on me or if there was like something that made me be like, okay, I feel good about this, but it's just like, I just don't care for them like I used to. That's okay. Like there doesn't have to be a reason in case anybody was wondering there is a such a thing as a healthy breakup. That can happen. It doesn't have to be messy. It can just be that you both recognize that you're not, you're not giving each other what you need and that's okay.

Lucas:

Right. And it's okay that you have feelings and you don't like it and stuff like that, but like if somebody is breaking up with you Right. <affirmative>, they're setting a boundary then. And so I get that it hurts mm-hmm <affirmative>. But the healthy response is to then accept that.

Christy:

Right. Or, and ask for, I would always ask for clarification, especially if you're the one getting broken up with and you didn't want that.

Lucas:

That's totally fair.

Christy:

Right?

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

To be like, okay, so what, what can I expect from you? Like, are we just like done done? Or like, can I still text you if I need to talk to somebody? Or you know, what does that look like and what it looks like on that day might look different in a week, might look different in two weeks and you can, just because you said it that day doesn't mean that it can't change. You can change emotions change, things change.

Lucas:

Yeah. And that's, I mean, that would be essentially your clarifying the boundary. Which is also very important.

Christy:

Right. You think about unhealthy relationships and unhealthy boundaries in relationships because that's a thing. And this is, this is something that happens all of the time, <laugh>. And I get, I am old and so I, this is not how I dated when I was younger, but like, they'll go in and have them erase every male in their phone or every female in their phone to be like, oh man, nope. If you, if I am your, if I'm your girlfriend slash boyfriend, then you are only talking to me. That's not a boundary that's abusive.

Lucas:

Yep. That, that's an inappropriate.

Christy:

That would, that would be a too strict of a boundary.

Lucas:

That would be, absolutely.

Christy:

Like, that's, that's abusive. And I was like, well, do you like these people? Well, yeah. He's been my friend since I was in kindergarten. Okay. You can have a friend that happens to be a boy or a girl. Like that is an unhealthy boundary. And I think that especially when kids are young and they're like in first loves, and you kind of get like swept away with some of that and it's easy to kind of forget who you are to be like, you don't have to throw everything away because this person in your life who says that they love you, it make, it's making them uncomfy.

Lucas:

Right.

Christy:

Like, I don't, like that's not, that's not it.

Lucas:

No. And it, it's, it can be helpful in situations. This is why it's important to just be open and talk about things, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so if you're not in a ther with a therapist, like even going to trusted family and friends and just saying like, Hey, this is what's going on. Like what are your thoughts on this? Um, just to get some other feedback or whatever, but, and hopefully they can guide you in a direction, but if you're just like really confused and you're not sure, like, come talk to us. We see this stuff all the time and can help you and we're not gonna tell you what your boundaries should be. Right. Unless it's like extreme, like. I will obviously I'm gonna die on the hill of like, you do not deserve to be hit. Right. Just as an extreme example. But I want to help you discover what your values are mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then set boundaries based off of that. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Christy:

And I think we do a lot of discovery with people as to, I was gonna say why their boundaries suck, but that's a judging word and I'm not gonna <laugh>, I'm gonna retract it. Scratch that. Um, about why they allow their boundaries to be infringed on or why they don't set a stricter boundary or expectation for people. And a lot of times it goes back to self-worth and feeling like they don't deserve something more than what they have. But like, you kind of have to do a deep dive into that.

Lucas:

Yeah. I've also noticed that when people are have like a more passive or tend to be walked over some more that as they are learning new boundaries, it get, it feels really good. To set boundaries. And sometimes they overshoot a bit.

Christy:

A bit.

Lucas:

A bit. And to the point of like, maybe you've offended some people or you set too strict of a boundary. Or you're saying no to too many things maybe. And it's now it's starting to impact your life in a the opposite way. Or whatever. That's normal. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. It's really fun to stand up for yourself. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Once you learn how to do it, it feels really good. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. 'cause you're getting the things that you want and what you need. And some people come in, so I did it. Now they're really mad <laugh>, but like, probably 'cause I, I was too far and I was like, alright, well let's just pull it back.

Christy:

Yeah. Yeah. It is really fun to feel empowered. Like that feeling of empowerment. Especially if you haven't felt it before to be like, I set that boundary and they respected it and now I don't have to do this thing that I've been dreading to do forever. And it's just like, oh my gosh. Okay. That feeling is intoxicating. And so then it's like, and I'm saying no to you and I'm saying no to you. And I'm saying no to coming to work. It's like, whoa, no, no, <laugh>, we got, you gotta come to work. Like, let's not, let's not overshoot this, but like you're saying no to everything and now you're a hermit.

Lucas:

Right. <Laugh>. Exactly. Because relationships take compromise.

Christy:

Yes. They do. They do.

Lucas:

So if you're just saying no to everything, that's also not gonna work.

Christy:

Right, and because it's one thing to set your own, it's another thing to accept somebody else's.

Lucas:

Yes.

Christy:

That which is a skill.

Lucas:

Absolutely.

Christy:

And realizing that it's not personal and that it's not about you. Like if someone sets a boundary with me, it's, it's very, it's not about me, it's about what they need from me or what they don't want from me. Which is plentiful, let's be honest. Like sometimes it's like Christy, like maybe slowly roll a little bit and, and learning that to not take that personally is, is truly a skill. It's like, it's not that you're doing anything necessarily wrong. I don't think most people are well intentioned. They don't go out wanting to hurt somebody's feelings or make them feel burdened or make them feel whatever. Like, that's not my intention. And honestly I think you're doing me a disservice if you're not saying, Hey, I need you to do a little bit more of this or a little bit less of this 'cause I want to be doing the right thing for you. You know, and, and I always say un unstated expectations are just wishes. You're just hoping that people respond in the way that you want them to without you telling them how you want them to respond. That's not fair.

Lucas:

No.

Christy:

And so I would much rather have somebody set a boundary with me. And so, 'cause I want them to feel like they're empowered and that they're getting out of whatever this is, than have them just like go around and then like quietly resent me and then eventually just be like, like ghost me. And I'd be like, what did I do? You're like, well <laugh> you did this, this, this, this and this. And I'm like, I had no idea.

Lucas:

Right. All you have to do, tell me.

Christy:

Just tell me I could back off. Kind of.

Lucas:

I thought you liked that.

Christy:

Yeah. <Laugh>, I thought that that's what you wanted from me. And like, no, you're annoying <laugh>.

Lucas:

Talk to people.

Christy:

Yes. Crazy. What will happen. Clarity is kind.

Lucas:

I like that.

Christy:

I always say that to be clear is to be kind. 'cause people will be like, well I don't wanna tell 'em this because what if they think this, this and this? And it's like you're still thinking it. That thought isn't gonna go away. It's not fair for them to not know that. So you stating, Hey, you know what? I've really liked getting to know you, but I just don't wanna date you. That's kind. You're letting them go. You're allowing them to go find something that they want. You're allowing yourself to go find something that they want. You just stringing people along because you're too wimpy to set a boundary or say, you know what? This just isn't for me. I would appreciate if you like, if we just didn't talk anymore, but good luck. You know? That's cool. That is a very kind thing to do.

Lucas:

That is the kindest thing you could do in that situation.

Christy:

Yes. Absolutely.

Lucas:

So set some more boundaries.

Christy:

Yes, everybody.

Lucas:

And respect other people's boundaries.

Christy:

Yeah. That'd be nice.

Lucas:

We always want to encourage you to ask the question, is it just me? You're likely not alone. And there's always a way to help. If anything we have talked about today resonates with you, please reach out.

Christy:

Do you have a topic you'd like us to talk about? Message us. We'd love to hear from you. You can go into our dms, text messaging, however you wanna get to us. We have a, isitjust me@dakotaranch.org Email And you contacting us about that is not breaking our boundaries.

Lucas:

No, please do, if fact.

Christy:

Please do. Yeah

Lucas:

And don't forget to share us with your friends and family.

Announcer:

Thanks for listening to today's episode of Is It Just Me? To learn more or make an appointment for psychiatric or mental health services at Dakota Family Services, go to dakotafamilyservices.org or call 1 800 2 0 1 64 95.

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