About the Hosts

Christy Wilkie provides therapy for children and adolescents, ages 5-25, who have complex behavioral health issues. She combines her extensive clinical expertise with a belief in kids, and has a unique ability to find and develop their strengths. She works hard to be an ideal therapist for her clients, doing what is best to fit their needs.

Lucas Mitzel provides therapy for children, adolescents, and adults, ages 5 - 30. He believes building relationships with clients is the most important piece of successful therapy. He loves what he does because it allows him to walk next to people he would never have met had he chosen a different profession, as they work to make amazing life changes. He has the honor of meeting people at their worst, all while watching them grow into the people they’ve always wanted to be.

Transcript
Boosting Self-Esteem: From Marathons to Daily Triumphs

Featuring Christy Wilkie, LCSW, and Lucas Mitzel, LCSW, Dakota Family Services

Announcer:

This episode of, is It Just Me, is brought to you by Dakota Family Services, your trusted partner in mental and behavioral health, whether you need in-person or virtual care, the team of professionals at Dakota Family Services is dedicated to supporting children, adolescents, and adults in their journey to better mental health,

Christy:

Disrupting life patterns and life routines that aren't serving you.

Lucas:

It's how we feel that keeps us going.

Christy:

You can be a masterpiece and a work of art all at the same time.

Lucas:

Hey everyone, I'm Lucas. And I'm Christy. And you're listening to the, is It Just Me podcast.

Christy:

Where we aim to provide education, decrease the stigma, and expel some myth around mental health,

Lucas:

<Laugh>, Christy, is it just me or do we see ourselves differently than others see us?

Christy:

I, I think that that is so true. I was talking with a friend from high school who listens to our podcast, hi Kelly. And he was sending me some podcast ideas, and one of the things that he had said was,
“Is it just me or is the person that I see in the mirror is not what everybody else sees?” It was something along that, and I was like, oh my gosh, that's such a good topic. Because how often do we talk about that with people in our office?

Lucas:

Every single day. Multiple times a day.

Christy:

Every single day. Multiple times a day. Yes.

Lucas:

Yeah. It's incredibly common that people suffer from low self-esteem. And that goes anywhere from the activities that we do to our looks, to how much we weigh to anything.

Christy:

There' s what we're good at. Yeah. What we're not good at.

Lucas:

Our jobs parenting, all of it. self-esteem fluctuates throughout the day, throughout the year. And there's, it's, it's really important to talk about because it impacts so many different things. Yes. Anxiety, depression, all the way to body dysmorphia to eating disorders. It plays a huge role in our lives.

Christy:

Yeah. I always tell people, people don't understand the power of your thoughts. Like your thoughts are so powerful and the inner monologue that you have going on within your head needs to be positive or it's gonna impact every other area of your life. The example I always give about the power of thoughts is like, have you ever been researching to buy something? I always use a Jeep. Like let's just say that you were gonna buy a Jeep and you're researching Jeeps, and it's on your mind. Right? Like, that's the thing that's on your mind. Jeeps, Jeeps, Jeeps, Jeeps, Jeeps. And all of a sudden you're like, oh my gosh, there's so many Jeeps on the road. Why are there so many Jeeps on the road? There aren't any more Jeeps on the road as there normally are, but it's in your brain. So that's what you're seeing. And so the same thing goes with your thoughts about yourself. If you're constantly looking for what I call deficit thinking, the things that you're not good at, the things that are missing, the things that you wish you had and you don't have. If you're constantly thinking about that, that's what you're gonna notice in yourself and other people and your life. If you change that and you're like, oh, I'm gonna look at the positive things, then you're more likely to look at positive things.

Lucas:

Right. It's, I, I tell people this all the time, but if everybody was privy to the thoughts that we had internally about ourselves, our jails would be more overflowing. <Laugh> and our hospitals would, there'd just be nobody working. Right. So our thoughts play a huge role in this, and it's important that we take notice of those things because a lot of 'em are what's called intrusive thoughts.   And those are thoughts that we don't have control over because they just pop in. They're kind of like the Kool-Aid man busting through the wall saying, oh yeah, <laugh>. Oh yeah. There's a, there a do it Lucas. Oh yeah. <Laugh>. I am so sorry. There's a I am getting to the point now where I am so old that I have kids that don't know what I'm talking about when I say that analogy anymore.

Christy:

Oh, that's so sad.

Lucas:

I know. It makes me really, really sad. There are two different kinds of self-esteem. So there's a global self-esteem, which is your overall view of yourself, and then there's the specific self esteems, which is where how you feel doing very specific tasks and your specific self-esteem can impact your global self self-esteem differently depending on the importance that the activity is for you.

Christy:

So, like, my, my math self-esteem is not going to be great,

Lucas:

Right? Yes. Right.

Christy:

Right. But if I'm doing something that not I feel good at, then that will be, that would be good. So like talking to people, God, let's hope that I'm decent at that <laugh>. That would be, that would be terrible if I wasn't, but I feel relatively confident talking to people. Like that's something that, and that brings my self-esteem up. Yeah. But do they balance out if I have bad math, self-esteem and, and good human interaction, self-esteem.

Lucas:

Right. Well, that, that's where the importance comes in. Right. Because is it important to you that you're good at math?

Christy:

Absolutely not.

Lucas:

So then it wouldn't really impact yourself, your global self-esteem. Right. Right. But if you started, how important is it to you that you are a good like talker of to people?

Christy:

A good talker of people? I mean, yes.

Lucas:

<Laugh>. I was hoping we would just go past it.

Christy:

I can't, it's not in my being. Yeah. That's very important to me.

Lucas:

So then if you felt like you weren't very good at that, that would severely impact your self-esteem?

Christy:

Well yeah, because I mean, if I had to do math to do my job and I was bad at math, then you're bad at your job. And then I'm, then that. Okay. See, that's a spiral then. Yeah. Because then everybody's judging you. And now I'm gonna get in trouble at work because I'm not good at math. And so I think that probably plays to the importance of doing something that, I mean, most of us are working, what, 40 to 60 hours a week? Yep. If you're not in a job doing something that you feel confident in that could have a disastrous impact on your mental health.

Lucas:

Absolutely. It's, it's very important that you feel like you're doing well at the things that you both enjoy and value in order to keep yourself esteem up. Yeah. And there's a lot of reasons why even if you are good at something, you might think that you're not, such as having a ridiculous standard for yourself, people who might describe themselves as a, as a perfectionist, we know nothing about that. By the way, <laugh>, if you don't match the standard that you have created for yourself, that nobody is likely put in place for you, and you don't ever match that you're gonna have a lower self-esteem because you're going to feel like you're failing all the time. And that's just not healthy for the brain.

Christy:

And that goes back, I mean, so this is something that I, that I've said in previous podcasts, but you can be a masterpiece in a, in a work in progress all at the same time. It's like figuring out how you can be okay with where you're at, and you can have aspirations to do something different. That's fine. But holding yourself to that standard at all times and thinking that you aren't good enough where you're at because you're not the best at it, is so toxic. Yeah.

Lucas:

And I think there's a big misunderstanding or misconception that comes with physical attractiveness even.   So a lot of people think that physically attractive people are just naturally more confident.   And that's not true. No. We, we have not found that in research. What actually has shown is that people who are more confident dress more attractively  or take care of themselves more   And so it's not just be like, if you are physically attractive, therefore you must be more confident. It's actually the opposite where confidence increases how you take care of yourself, thus you might be deemed as more attractive or whatever.

Christy:

Right. I think that is a very dangerous slope to go down, because I, I think it is really easy to look at other people and say, oh my gosh, they have it all together. I wish I could be like that. I wish I could. And it's like, you talk to that person, the person that everybody's idolizing. Yeah. And they, they have their own stuff going on, too. Everybody has their own stuff. Everybody.

Lucas:

Everybody.

Christy:

I mean, it happens in, in this small town, you know, it's like you get somebody that comes into the, to the office and they're like, this is the person I look up to. And it's like, they must not have a care in the world. And it's like, okay, I know that person. They do, they have their own stuff too. We've talked about the highlight reel on Instagram or Facebook or whatever. Yep. And it's, and that I think is so telling too, where it's like, if you've got this little sense of self-doubt in you, or that you're not good enough, that you're not doing well enough, and then you see pictures in your face all of the time of something that you want to be, and that you're not that, and you don't see what's happening behind that photo. Like, they all have their own stuff. Yeah.

Lucas:

What is something that you feel like other people say that you're good at, but you have a hard time believing

Christy:

<Laugh>? I don't If somebody says I'm good at anything. Yeah. <Laugh>, I think that they're lying to me. Touche. This is a really dumb one, because it's really important for me to be a good friend. But when people tell me that I'm a good friend, I have a hard time believing that sometimes, even though it's

Lucas:

You are a really good friend.

Christy:

I really try to be a good friend because other people are very important to me.  and the people that I am close to, I want them to know that I appreciate them and their presence in my life. And it's like, they think it's like the self-esteem thing, right. Where it's like, I want to be a good friend to you because I'm so thankful that you are able and willing to put up with me as a human.

Lucas:

Put up with you. Right. Wow.

Christy:

I know, I know. I know that that is a cognitive distortion, and I know that that's irrational, but I just always want people to know that they mean something to me, and I just never feel like I'm doing enough. Yeah. Even though I feel like I'm doing a lot, I just always feel like I can do more. Right. Does that make sense?

Lucas:

Yeah. It's an unrealistic bar that you've put for yourself. Yeah.

Christy:

Yeah. What's something that people say you do?

Lucas:

Well people say, I'm a great dad and I

Christy:

You are a great dad,

Lucas:

<Laugh>, thank you, <laugh>. But I never feel like I'm doing enough. And I, but

Christy:

Are you doing the best you can? Absolutely. I'm every day. Right. Every day. So the, if you're doing your best every day, what more can you be doing?

Lucas:

I hear what you're saying, <laugh>. I just don't believe it. Because what happens is I have these moments where maybe I'm not at my best and I make a mistake or I say something that I shouldn't have said, or I reacted a way I shouldn't have reacted, or I could have handled something better. And those are the ones that stick with me. Right?   And so then I'm like, that's the culmination of my parenting and my brain, which I know is false. Right. And I know is a cognitive distortion. I know it's irrational, just like you said. Yep. But that is what pops into my head. And so then when people are like, you are a great dad because we went and did like a really fun activity, I'm like, sure, that is cool. But I know all these other things that you don't know. So obviously it's false <laugh>.

Christy:

It's so funny. I know. I always see, I get parents in here all the time that say stuff like that. Yeah. There's like, I messed up, I messed up. And I was like, man, overall, if you are doing the best you can with what you got, and you are coming at it from a place of love, like they're not gonna know he Yeah. He's not gonna remember any, anything. Ollie is not gonna remember you. Whatever it is that you think you messed up. Yeah. I think about my own childhood because my, we all know my parents are awesome. Like they just are the best. And I'm sure that they probably think that they made some mistakes along the way, but when I look at my childhood growing up, I don't think about, I don't even know what they would think that they did wrong, but I'm sure that they would come up with something. I just think I had a really great childhood, and I'm sure that they probably think that they made a ton of mistakes. And I was like, I don't know. My, I think my, my parents pretty perfect <laugh>. Yeah. And I'm sure they, they're probably lamenting or probably did when we were younger, 'cause Wow.

Lucas:

Absolutely.

Christy:

We were something when we were younger,

Lucas:

But yeah. And this, you can see this happening all over the place with a lot of different topics with both of us.   And we could probably go on and on about the things that we're self-conscious about, or <laugh> things that we don't think are good at that other people are like, wow, you're really good at that. Yeah. But one thing that is the point that I, with that is people who have low self-esteem really have a hard time accepting positive feedback because it's so far away from their personal beliefs about whatever the topic is.  that their brain just automatically rejects it. And so it take, and it takes a lot of work to start accepting those compliments and trying to believe them.

Christy:

Yeah. I think one of, I've, I've said this to Lucas before, but accepting a compliment is like a high level social skill. It is very hard to do. And I think I've told you that before.

Lucas:

You have told, I actually remember the first time you ever said it, 'cause it meant a lot <laugh>,

Christy:

Because, because you were, you did something great at work. And I was like, dude, you're awesome. I can't remember what I said, but it's like, you're like, oh God. It's like, yeah. Accepting compliment is hard. It is a high level social skill because it requires a level of self-awareness that it's really, that's really hard to have.

Lucas:

Yeah. And the damage that can be done to self-esteem, there's often a, a trigger point or like a, a source of it, but then the majority of it, or the long-term damage is often self-inflicted.  because we have a bad moment or we have a bad experience that we are grounding this thought in. And then every other time that we have anything close to that, we continuously berate ourselves.  reminding ourselves of that moment of like, see, this is an example of how you suck. Right. Or like, you aren't really good at this or whatever. And so then we just continue to spiral down this path of low self-esteem and it just gets worse and worse.

Christy:

Right. I think it also, I mean, anxiety also plays a part in some of this  because dumb and I, again, I know that these are cognitive distortions, but it's like someone will tell me that I did something. Well, yeah. Right? Yeah. And my first thought is, I've got you fooled <laugh>.

Lucas:

Same. You know? Oh my gosh. It's

Christy:

Like, like, oh my God. They have no idea that I really actually suck at this. But they think that I'm doing well. But that's so dumb. Yeah. Because if I'm doing something well and somebody's like, you're doing well, I should just be like, well, yeah, I tried really hard. I work really hard. 'cause I do, I try really hard and I work really hard and I, you know, we do all the right things, but my first response is sucker. Right. <laugh>.

Lucas:

Somebody has told me that I am like, I'm the best therapist they've ever had. And my first thought is, how bad of therapy have you had

Christy:

<Laugh>? Like,

Lucas:

If this is the best, how bad has it been for you?

Christy:

God, I'm the best you got.

Lucas:

Right. Oh

Christy:

My goodness. Which is dumb because you are a very talented therapist.

Lucas:

Thank you. Yes, you are as well. Thank you. Some interesting,

Christy:

Look at us accepting compliments.

Lucas:

I know. We're doing so good,

Christy:

Oh my goodness. Role models <laugh>.

Lucas:

It's some interesting, 'cause we can't go podcast without stats. I'm sorry guys.

Christy:

No It's Great. It's my favorite part. Run it down, Lucas, run it down.

Lucas:

Some interesting things that I hope give you a feeling of just not being alone. 'cause That's kind of what this whole podcast is about. I think these stats really paint that picture for us. Mm-Hmm. Is that by, so like for girls by age 17, 78% of girls report being unhappy with their bodies.

Christy:

And it was funny, 'cause Lucas, he just told me that statistic before we started recording, and I was like, wow, that seems low. And Lucas was like, that's really high <laugh>. I was like, no, it is really high. It is a high number. But I'm, I'm honestly surprised that it isn't higher because I mean, there not that it, it's not true for men, but for women there is so much societal pressure to look a certain way. And men have, I just think there's more acceptable body types for men, like, than there are for women. There is, yeah. There's like, and so it, there's just this huge pressure to look a certain way or you're not desirable by in any way. Yeah.

Lucas:

Which goes into the second part of that is that 90% of girls feel pressured to look a certain way, which

Christy:

That's huge.

Lucas:

Is crazy. Yeah. That that's the, that that's the case.

Christy:

But I think, I mean, as a girl, I'm, I'm 44 years old. Right. And we, I still go through that and I'm, and, and I think that there is a movement towards body positivity in the younger generations than there were for us. I mean, we grew up, I grew up in the nineties, so like Kelvin Klein, skinny emaciated models. Like that was, that was what, that's what everybody was looking like. Yeah. And it was like, it was an impossible standard, impossible standard to hit. And why would we want to <laugh>?

Lucas:

Right.

Christy:

That's so dumb. And now, I mean, it's like your weight is the, the least important thing about you. Like, who cares? Yeah. It's same number. Yeah. You

Lucas:

Know.

Christy:

Exactly. But, but the, I mean, you get people that are really focused on that and were like, if I just lost one more inch or if my cheekbones were just a little bit higher, or just these little things that you don't even have control over, that would be like, my life would be so much better if, if I just lost five pounds and it's like, Nope. It's, your life is gonna be exactly the same.

Lucas:

Yeah. We were just talking about this right before we started recording that I feel like my voice sounds weird and Yeah. <Laugh>, which is interesting 'cause it was my idea to do a podcast. Yeah. But I do, I don't like listening to it. I don't know what exactly it is that I think about it, but I just feel like it looks weird or it sounds weird. Sorry. Not looks, and Christy was like, your voice sounds fine. Yeah. It sounds normal. Yeah. Like,

Christy:

It's a very, you have a very soothing voice, which

Lucas:

I appreciate. Yeah. But I don't believe you <laugh> so <laugh>,

Christy:

And this is why we will never listen to our podcast. Right. And I think that's a really common phenomenon, though. I think a lot of people don't like listening to themselves, or they hear themselves on the radio and they're like, who's that? Yeah. It's like that, that's what I sound like, because that's not what it sounds like up

Lucas:

Here. Exactly. Yeah.

Christy:

That, I think that's a really common thing.

Lucas:

Another thing that was interesting is that youth with higher rebelliousness or sensation seeking or risk taking  are connected to having lower self esteems. Oh, really? Yeah. Which I think we, in our practice, like we could see that anecdotally, but it's nice to have that statistic to kind of match that. Right. What we see in our offices.

Christy:

But I, I think what's interesting about that is that I think people will look at kids or people, adults that make risky choices, and they must think that they have confidence. Right. It's like, oh, they have confidence enough to go out and do that risky thing. And it's like, no, they are masking <laugh>. Yeah. They are insecure and they are masking whatever is going on with them.

Lucas:

Yep. I mean, they're trying to maybe get some, some attention from their peers or whatever.   Or there could be a million different reasons as to why that's going on. Right.

Christy:

But if you look at masking in general, which is I think something that a lot of people do, I think that also gets in the way of you believing what people are saying about you. Right. I mean, I have, I have, I have self-disclosed that I am a ridiculously anxious person. I was diagnosed when I was a child, <laugh>, like I am, I am anxious. But I think if you, if you were to meet me or if anybody just like knew me anecdotally, they would think that I was not, I mean, I, Amy, who is one of our colleagues, she still doesn't believe that I'm an anxious person. She's like, there's no way that you're actually anxious. I'm like, but I am though. I mean, I mask it really, really well to function <laugh> Yeah. Throughout the day. But that, that, that deep seated like anxiety then, and what I'm putting forward and what's really going on in my head is like, it, they're, they're two different things.

Lucas:

Right. And we are the only ones that are privy to our thoughts.   And so I know, like when I do an activity or do try to accomplish something, I know I have this image or in my head of how I want it to look, how I want it to go. And if it doesn't go exactly how I want it to go, then I didn't meet my expectations. So then it feels like a failure. Right. However, to everybody else, it looked great. Yeah. And they weren't privileged to the idea that I had in my head. They, and even if they were, they would probably still think it was great.   And tell me to calm down that that was too high of an expectation, whatever. Right. But we are the, our biggest critics. Right. And it's really hard to break that. Yeah. But it can be done. Yeah.

Christy:

Going back to the reel that you have in your head, like, we have a reel of thoughts that go on and not, not every thought we have is good. And in fact, some of them you might think, I'm glad that that is just in my head <laugh> and that it, that nobody ever will know that I had that thought. Right. <laugh> because, but I, and, and I say that because I wanna normalize that we all have negative thoughts or bad thoughts about people, about situations, about, about anything. And it, and it can make us feel like we're bad people because we had those thoughts. And so when people say, oh my gosh, you're such a good person. And it's like, oh my gosh, if you could only be in my head for a minute, you know, it's not, it's not, it's not all sunshine and rainbows up there, but those thoughts don't define you.

Lucas:

Is it possible to have too high of self-esteem?

Christy:

I think that's called narcissism. It is.

Lucas:

Yeah. That was a quiz and you passed.

Christy:

I'm so good at this game. <Laugh>.

Lucas:

Yeah. That's narcissism mania can also cause some intense self-esteem.  everything in moderation, right? Yeah. Like there is a healthy level of self-esteem where you aren't thinking that you're the greatest at literally at like literally the greatest of at everything. Right. but we also don't want you to go the other direction, which is where you think you're the worst at everything. Right. 'cause that's obviously not healthy. That's what we're Right. This whole episode is about

Christy:

<Laugh>. Yeah. There's a place where humility needs to live. Yeah. You can even, even, you can know that you're good at something, but be humble about it.

Lucas:

Absolutely. Yeah. And it's really important for a lot of different things. Yes.

Christy:

<Laugh> nearly everything. Yeah. But, and, and I think we, well, I mean, we could go down this narcissism ra rabbit hole, but really that should be a whole other podcast. Because if you get a lot of people that come in and say, is my partner a narcissist <laugh>? Right. And it's like, there is a difference between high self-esteem and narcissism. But I mean, if, if, if you think that you are living with somebody who has a narcissistic personality disorder, then we should get them referred <laugh> Yes. To see somebody. 'cause That's a, that's a whole different beast.

Lucas:

Yes. And you should find somebody to talk to as well, <laugh>.

Christy:

Right, exactly. Because that they're difficult to live with.

Lucas:

Absolutely.   where does, we talked a bit about how self-esteem kind of gets worsened by our own thoughts and, and things. But oftentimes the self-esteem issue can start with like a, like a moment. Oh, yeah. And a lot of times for people that starts in childhood.   And as we grow older, we, again, we started, we kind of berate ourselves and make it worse and worse and worse.   Do you have any examples of that?

Christy:

That's so funny. 'cause As soon as you said that, this is so dumb. And when I was in the first grade, the first grade, I remember there was like this, you had to go through like times tables. Back then we had to do times tables. And if you passed it, you got to have a key. Right. And so whoever got the most key, the fastest, as soon as you got all 12 keys, you got, you got like this prize or whatever. And I wanted to be, first I am, I am competitive to a fault <laugh>. And I just, I really wanted to be first. And I wasn't. And I lost to Nathan, who was arguably the, the smartest human I have ever known in my life. And from then on, I was like, I wasn't good enough. Wow. I know. Yeah. And I, I forever, I remember being that kind of, that's the first one that I remember. But ever since then, I was just like, I need to be, I need to be the best. 'cause I didn't like the feeling of not being the best.

Lucas:

And from then on a perfectionist was born <laugh>

Christy:

Only in some things though. Right. Like, like there, there are some things that I'm very particular about. And then there's some things that I, I don't, but I, I, I really have had to develop a mindset on that. The example I always give people is I love to golf. Mm-Hmm. I love golfing. It's relaxing. I love it. I have a golf pro friend who's like, Christy, if I could, if I could just give you three lessons, you could be like a really good golfer. And I said, I don't want to be a really good golfer. I don't want to care about golf that much where I don't enjoy it. 'cause I know myself well enough to know that if, if I got really good at it, I wouldn't enjoy it if I made a mistake and I don't wanna do that. I did that with tennis when I was a kid. Yeah. Like, I didn't, I I had to be, I had to be the best. And if I wasn't, it was devastating.

Lucas:

Devastating. Yeah. Ugh.

Christy:

Do you have an example?

Lucas:

Oh my goodness. Yes. <laugh>.

Christy:

Oh, let me tell you

Lucas:

Too many, but I'll pick one. The, so in the second grade, I was, it was joke day in our class, and I was brave. And I got up and I told a joke and nobody laughed. Oh my God. I was humiliated.

Christy:

What? Do you remember the joke? No. Okay. 'cause That would be funny. Yeah.

Lucas:

And so then I sat down and everybody was just like super awkward for a bit. And then we just moved on.   nobody said a thing. The teacher didn't say a thing. And I was just super embarrassed. Oh, no. So then from then on, I said, I am never speaking in class again. Because what I say is dumb.

Christy:

Is this why you don't talk in meetings?

Lucas:

This is why I don't talk in meetings. Oh. Unless I know what I'm gonna say. And I know exactly that it's correct.

Christy:

This is why we over, this is why you over prepare, just so we all know, like behind these scenes, right. Like I, oh my goodness, I show up. Like that is the one thing I, it's on my calendar. So I come into this room and I'm like, okay, let's talk. And Lucas is the preparer. He has got notes, he's researched things. That's why he always comes with statistics. I mean, he just, he needs to know. He needs to know. Otherwise you can't really function <laugh> Right.

Lucas:

To out myself. Even further, I have a phone with the timer going. Yeah. I have a computer in front of me and I have a notepad with a pencil just in case I need to write more things down. Oh my God. And I have notes Yeah. Already written down in the notepad. So I am, yes. I cannot come unprepared.

Christy:

I have a thermos full of water. Right. <Laugh>, <laugh>. That's, that's what I literally bring to the table. Yeah. <laugh>.

Lucas:

And this is,

Christy:

This is how we function

Lucas:

Though. This is how we function. This is how we make it work.

Christy:

This Is how, yeah. This is how we make it work.

Lucas:

So

Christy:

It's balance. We balance each other out.

Lucas:

So with, with our kids,  the way that we can help prevent some of these things from occurring, or help them have as good a self-esteem as possible, is to really focus on listening to both accomplishments and mistakes.  and congratulating or celebrating those accomplishments and then accepting the mistakes.   And not making it a big thing. Right. Right. The mistake is not who they are.   It's, it doesn't have to go past that moment.   But when we start dragging things on and giving harsh criticisms or making them feel like they have to be perfect all the time.   that's a sign. Or that's going to possibly lead to some lower self-esteem issues that can, like, in my case, last a lot of years. Wow. Yeah. I'm not doing the math <laugh>. <Laugh>

Christy:

I'm not doing the math either. 'cause My math self-esteem is very low, extraordinarily low. I think the other thing too, I mean, not to sound all SNLs, that Stewart Smalley we're like, I'm good enough. I'm smart enough, and gosh, there people like me. Yeah. But like positive affirmations really do help. I will tell people, especially young women who either don't like their body or are struggling with body dysmorphia or something worse, like go in the mirror because we're, we are literally programmed to look in the mirror and say, that's not right. That's not right. That's not right. And find something that you like about what's staring back at you. Whether it's your eyes, whether it's your eyelashes, if you like your ears, if you like just something, find something about you every day that you like, instead of learning to focus on, I wanna change that. I wanna change that. I wanna change that. Be like, I'm, I love that part of me and I'm accepting that because again, it's deficit thinking. If you're always looking for what's wrong and you're never looking for what's right, that's what you're gonna see.

Lucas:

Yeah. Another exercise that I love to do with people is I ask them if those same standards that they apply to themselves apply to everybody.   So if this ridiculous bar that you've set, if I did not reach that bar, am I as much of a failure as you claim that you are?  a hundred percent of the time it's a no. Yeah. So far <laugh>, and I mean, 'cause it could change, right? Of course. But if there's a special rule that just applies to you and not to the entire world, I would maybe challenge that a little bit.   But maybe that's irrational thought.

Christy:

Right? We talk about this all the time where we're like, treat yourself like you would treat your best friend. Or look at this situation like outside of your head and look at it. If your best friend was going through this and they were feeling this way, what would you say to them? So, well, that's ridiculous. They're, they're great at this and they're great at that, and they're great at whatever. And it's like, okay, you can see all the greatness in everybody else, but you can't look and see what's great about you. And so I will, a lot of times when people are really struggling, say, I want you to go to the five people in your life that are closest to you, and I want you to ask them to give you five words that describe you. And I want you to bring 'em back and we're gonna talk about it. And all of the time, every single time, it's like these words that they're just like, there's no way that describes me. There's no way. It's like,     But they do. Yeah. Because this is how people see you. It's just not how you see yourself. Like, I'm not brave. Like Yeah, you are, you're in therapy for one. That's the bravest thing anybody can do. Yeah.

Christy:

Absolutely. You know? And so it's like you just don't understand how other people are perceiving you because you're so busy smack talking yourself. <Laugh>. Right.

Lucas:

<Laugh>.

Lucas:

Right. Fake it till you make it.   Right. That's another thing. Especially, we talked about this a little bit with depression, but opposite action.   Which is essentially fake. And until you make it   when your brain is telling you one thing, you do the opposite of that.  until it starts feeling like that's the right thing.   So if you don't feel like this is that you're good at something fake, like you're good at, act like you are   If you, you're not confident or you, but you want to be more confident in talking in front of people, or maybe you want to be more confident with your voice, use it more. Yeah. Go talk in front of people. Go do a podcast <laugh>.

Christy:

Love it.

Lucas:

Right. And just fake it. Yeah. And eventually what can happen as you start to believe what everybody else is saying, because it is true.

Christy:

  And it instills confidence in you. Right. I don't think that Lucas always loved public speaking.

Lucas:

No, I did not. <Laugh>

Christy:

<Laugh>. In fact, I think he kind of hated it. And I'm not exactly sure how we got boomeranged into doing all this public speaking, because I, I enjoy it and I always have, and I, the way that and I work, it's like I agree to do something and, and I'm like, Lucas and I will do that. Yep. That sounds good. And then they just kind of we're, we're in it together. Sounds great. That's how the podcast started too. But then you, you, you do, you learn to, like, the worst thing isn't always gonna happen. It's just not, and actually 99% of the time, the worst thing does not happen. And, and it's the opposite where good things happen. Yeah. Like you get positive feedback from things that you do, or presentations that, that you've done or, you know, whatever it is that you do. And it's like, oh, okay, maybe I don't suck at this. Right. Just maybe.

Lucas:

Yeah. And if you start hearing compliments or if I feel like I can tell when one's coming.   'cause It's also, it can feel awkward to give a compliment.

Christy:

You, you sound like that's like, like you're preparing for battle. I I can tell when it's coming.

Lucas:

Coming.

Christy:

I know a compliment's on the way. What am I gonna do with it?

Lucas:

<Laugh>. Because my first instinct, as we talked about earlier, is to essentially accuse them of lying to me. Yeah. And so I can tell that it's coming, or if I can, I start to prepare myself, okay, we need to, we're gonna accept this compliment.  because they mean that   And if I truly believe that people are, are not going to be lying to me or want me to feel negative or anything like that, then what they're telling me is probably true.   And so I should probably take it Mm-Hmm.

Christy:

<Affirmative> the way I i for a long time. 'cause I, I mean I we're constantly working on ourselves, right? Yeah. If you're not working on yourself, what are you doing? But for a long time, I, I avoided accepting compliments by saying, I appreciate you saying that because it's, I felt like I was responding in, in an appropriate way, but I also wasn't accepting the compliments. Right. It was like, you're just saying that instead of saying, oh, I really appreciate that. Like, why is that so hard? I don't know. But in my head it's like, if I actually accept that, I think that they think that I did something well. That that's somehow I don't deserve that. I don't know. It's weird. So I've been trying to even steer away from I appreciate you saying that because it, that's not right either.

Lucas:

Yeah. Just say thank you.

Christy:

I know. You know. Well, I mean, I know in my head I know <laugh>. Like I know that that's what's supposed to happen. And just, and just stop it there.

Lucas:

Another thing that you can do to help boost your self-esteem is to try new things.

Christy:

Oh, we have a podcast on the focus.

Lucas:

Yeah. That was our first episode, guys. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you have not listened to that, go listen to it. It's real fun. <Laugh>. but trying new things, especially things that are challenging that could also be called we talked about a skill in a previous podcast called Building Mastery.   Where you do something that is hard, but you know, you can complete it, but not easy enough that you don't get any feeling of satisfaction.  or accomplishment from that by, when you do those things and you prove to yourself that you can do it, your confidence will start to rise and your self-esteem will start to rise. Christie and I have both done marathons.   And that was just every week, every Saturday doing our long runs and getting that first new record of, of distance.  the boost to my self-esteem during that and since then has been tremendous.  trying to do that incredibly difficult task, completing it. And now I feel like we, we, we say this to each other all the time. I can complete a marathon, I can do anything. Yep. <Laugh>, I say it all the time. And we really believe that. Yeah.

Christy:

And I remember that feeling of crossing the, the finish line for the first time. And I was like, if I can do this, I can do anything. I even, this is, this is how, this is how often I use it. It it is cold in Fargo. It is really cold in the winter. And when I have to walk from my car to the front door at work, I sand my, to myself in my head. Like, if I can run a marathon, I can, I can get into this cold and into the office. Just you can do it. You can do it. Right. And just like, hype myself up <laugh>. But I, I mean, we say it, we, I all the time. All the time. And I, and I really do believe it. Like after running a marathon, I was like, there is nothing that I can't do if I really put my mind to it. Right.

Lucas:

Find your marathon. Yeah. And go. That could be anything. It could be anything. It doesn't have to be an actual marathon. No. And just go do something that is new, that is hard, that might challenge you a little bit. That you know that is possible. You can complete, complete it and feel great. Yeah.

Christy:

And I do think that that kind of feeds into why sometimes things like running are addictive. Yeah. Because it, it, it really does. When you can set a challenge and overcome it and do something you never thought you could do, it's like, Ooh, what's the next thing? Like, I wanna do that again.   So I'm gonna try a triathlon this summer. We'll see how that goes. Do I know how to swim? No. <laugh>

Lucas:

You don't like at all? You don't know how to swim. I know how to swim. Okay.

Christy:

Like I can stay afloat. Sure. But yeah. Have I ridden a bike outside? No. Not since I was a child. But this seems somehow I felt like that's, this seems like the, the challenge for me,

Lucas:

<Laugh>, I am excited for you.

Christy:

I just don't wanna die. But Yeah. But it's like, it's the next challenge. It's something I've never done, and I wanna be like, okay, I kinda want that feeling again of ugh. See, you can do it.

Lucas:

Yeah. I, we've talked about this in other podcasts before. I have a fear of heights and I, which

Christy:

Is absurd because the man hikes all the time.

Lucas:

I know. And I love it <laugh>. But I want to feel more confident on tall things. I want to be able to climb things that I currently can't.   And so when I'm out there and I'm a little bit scared, I pretend I'm not Yeah. And I just push through it. Yeah. And just go slow. And after I complete it, I feel like a million bucks.

Christy:

Is it working?

Lucas:

It is working. Good for you. Yeah. It's great.

Christy:

I love that for you.

Lucas:

And I can't, like, I can't wait to try get up to the next mountain. I can't wait to try one That's a little bit tougher, you know?

Christy:

How about Ferris wheels? Can you do that? Like rides? Oh yeah. Yeah. So

Lucas:

That doesn't bother you. Rides are fine. Rides are fine because I am strapped in. Oh, sure. Yeah. So I feel like you don't wanna

Christy:

Fall down a mountain,

Lucas:

Right? Yes. Yeah. Yes. Got it. I never will get to like, free climbing. Like that's just not something I'd

Christy:

Be Interesting. Those people have under activated amygdalas.

Lucas:

That is true. They did a brain scan of one of

Christy:

Them, right? Yeah. Whatever his name was. Yeah. Free solo. It's the, the movie on free solo. Yeah. And they were like, his amygdala just doesn't fire. So he just does not have fear. Right.

Lucas:

No fear response. No.

Christy:

Which tracks <laugh>. Right. <laugh>

Lucas:

Unhealthy, by the way. Yeah. We want a fear response.

Christy:

Yes. Yeah. We don't want it overactive. We don't want it underactive how we, we just, we stay it live, you know, moderate it. Right.

Lucas:

<Laugh>, another thing you can do is similar to like listing something that you like about yourself, is listing things that you're proud about of yourself for that day. Mm  and doing this every single day. And I would recommend a lot of people will just write it down or just say it to themselves Mm-Hmm. And then lose it. Make a list that you go back to. So this list gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. You have a million successes in a day. You just need to look at it. Yeah. I like to use this analogy of if you take a, a whiteboard that's been totally cleaned off and you put a black dot on it, the only thing you focus on is the black dot. Even though 99% of that whiteboard is clean.   And that's, that's kinda like our days. We might have a day where we might have a couple of dots in there, but most of it was clean. Mm-Hmm. And it, it was a good day. Yeah. But all we focus on is those black dots.   So let's purposefully look at the clean spots   And acknowledge those and be proud of ourselves for that.

Christy:

I use the same analogy, but I do like a field of flowers. Yeah. So you can have a field full of beautiful flowers, and there's one that's maybe a little dead <laugh> <laugh>. But instead of looking at like, how beautiful like this whole field of flowers is, you focus on the one dead one. That's not fair. Right. Yeah. It's just, and it doesn't make any sense. You can appreciate what's in front of you for all the beauty that it is.

Lucas:

Yeah. And I think it's just so natural for us to look at the one thing that stands out. Yeah. I've, we've, like Christy had said, we've, we've done a lot of public speaking.   I think the longest that we've ever talked is like eight hours or something like that. Yeah.

Christy:

Poor Suckers. I just, and they asked us back.

Lucas:

I know. I don't know. I don't understand that. But anyways, they but for eight hours. Right. And we, we got good feedback, all this. But the one time I stumbled over my words Mm-Hmm. Or the one time I, I said something that was maybe a little bit incorrect but one of my, like Christy caught me and like, saved me from that or whatever. That's the thing I focus on.  not the seven hours and 59 minutes of awesome stuff that I was doing. Right. <laugh>.

Christy:

Do you still remember what the mistake was?

Lucas:

I don't anymore. Okay.

Christy:

Yeah. But look at you. I know. Moving forward,

Lucas:

Letting it go. Yeah. which is what you gotta do. Right? We gotta let go of those things. Right. And celebrate all of the awesome. Yeah.

Christy:

And I think you, you have to realize that some of this is real work. Like if you wanna work on yourself and you want to be a better version of yourself, you really do actively have to be aware of your thoughts and challenge them and change them and do that work. Like therapy is, is hard. Yeah. Like wanting to, wanting to change who you are is a really, really difficult thing to do. But you do the work and it, it's amazing what can come out of it.

Lucas:

Absolutely. The the hardest part about therapy is afterwards because you go home and you work on it. Yeah. Therapy a lot of times is we're just pointing out like, like when Christy had said earlier, they put up with me.   And I was like, did you what?  and Oh, I said, put up with me.   And so now we've acknowledged that there's a, a thought distortion there. And so working on it is all the homework.  and trying to catch yourself thinking that way or saying those things.  and then flipping it. Yeah. all the while being kind to yourself Yeah. While you're working on these things. Because in some cases you're working on years and years and years of habits built up.   So just because it's not fixed in an hour session   And you have to keep revisiting. It doesn't mean that you're not being successful. Right.

Christy:

It goes to, we've talked about the neuro pathways before. You gotta, and if you're gonna make a whole new path, it takes some work and it takes repetition and it takes time. Your brain just doesn't do it. Yeah. Automatically. And words matter. Like words are so important. One of the a word that I just would like to kick out of the, the dictionary is why. Yeah. Because that is, that's the, why did you do that? Why are you feeling that way? Why? It's just, it's accusatory right off the bat and it puts people on the defense. And you're never gonna get, I shouldn't say never, but it's hard to have a genuine response when you're feeling defensive. If someone comes in and is like, well, why are you so sad? Like all of a sudden I'm like, I have to, to defend myself. I don't know why I'm sad. I just am sad.

Lucas:

Yeah. You have to justify it now. Right.

Christy:

But if someone comes up to me and says, Hey, you look like you're having a rough day. What's up with that? Like, are you all right? That's a totally different response. Or we talk about kids that do stupid things. Right. Kids do stupid adults do stupid things. <Laugh> we all do stupid things. And I think the immediate response is, why did you do that? Yeah. What were you thinking? And it immediately puts them on the defense and they're looking, you're, you're gonna get a lie. Right. Because they're, they're like, they're trying to blame something that's the go-to, well, because this person did this and this person that instead of being like, Hey, you know, you took a kind of a risky, a risky chance over there. Like, what's going on? What, what was going on in your thoughts behind that? It's just a very different approach to things. And you're gonna get a more genuine answer if you're gentle with people.

Lucas:

Right.

Christy:

Even if it's stupid. Like really stupid.

Lucas:

Right. And like we talked about last week, if you have a child who has ADHD or is impulsive  or you yourself are impulsive.   you may not have a reason why   It just happened. Exactly.

Christy:

And, and, and that's anxiety. That's depression. There, there isn't a why. And everyone's like, what are you so anxious about? I don't know why <laugh>, everything. I don't know. Yeah. Like, there, because there isn't anything. It's just the state. It's just the state of being of your brain. Yeah.

Lucas:

Those things don't need a they don't need permission to come in. They just kind of do. Right. They're like the Kool-Aid man. <Laugh>

Christy:

Again,

Lucas:

Bringing it full circle.

Christy:

Yeah. Look at you.

Lucas:

I'm trying.

Christy:

I'm here for it. <Laugh>.

Lucas:

Oh my goodness. So like, when somebody is, when you're doing something that you don't feel like you're super great at, but you want to be   What are some ways to push yourself into getting yourself into doing the thing that you want to be good at?

Christy:

For me, I, I go back to cooking. Right. 'cause this is, this is a thing that I'm terrible at. I set realistic expectations for myself. I think that's, that's the biggest, the biggest thing to do, is I, I'm not, I'm not gonna go out and make Gordon Ramsey's beef willington tomorrow.

Lucas:

Which are delicious, by the way.

Christy:

Right? Yes. <Laugh>. sorry, but I, I need to, I still need to like master a boxed brownie mix. Yeah. Because I, I literally have set them on fire twice <laugh>. But my mom, this is my, my mom keeps trying though. Every year she gets me like easier versions of the brownies and just is like, good luck. Don't set him on fire. <Laugh>. And I, and Scott will say this too, he's like, Scott is my husband, bless his heart, he's like, you're not bad at cooking, you're just anxious. You're gonna mess it up. And I was like, well, that, that's rude to call me out like that. But it's true. Like I just, I don't have that feeling of mastery. Yeah. And so, and I, we, if there's something that we know about myself, if I, it's hard for me to do something if I know I'm not gonna be good at it. Yes. Even if I want to and even if I want to enjoy it. And so I just have to like, make reasonable expectations and then, and then build off of that. Right.

Lucas:

And we see that all the time with kids. Yeah. And, and adults. But we have people who don't want to go do something, whether that be schoolwork.  or trying a new job. Or trying a new activity because they're scared they're gonna fail.  and failure is okay.   In fact, it's good. Yeah. It's how we learn. And I know that's cliche. You learn the best when you fail or whatever.   But it's true.   And there's no failure that's going to be cata. Everything's, everything's figureoutable. Everything

Christy:

Is figureoutable. I have that on my wall.

Lucas:

And like, a good example with kids is we have so many kids who, and I have parents who come and they just can't understand what is going on here. But they will, they'll do their homework, they'll finish it, it's good to go. And they will not turn it in.  because they're scared they're gonna get a bad grade on it. Right. And it's easier just to know that they're gonna get a bad grade than chance the failure. Right.

Christy:

Lucas and I have talked about this before, <laugh> about writing emails. Yeah. Where like, you write an email and you sit and you stare at it, and I check to make sure that it's going to the right person. And it's like, it's hard for me to send it and send it <laugh>. It's, and, and I, and I've never, we never really understood why, but it's like once, once that leaves my inbox. Yeah. I don't have control over it. For one, I don't know how people are gonna take it for two. It causes some anxiety to be like, I what if it's, what if this email is terrible? Like someone's gonna judge my email. I don't know. That's irrational. Yeah. But that's, I think that's how kids feel about homework. Once they turn it in, they don't have control over it. They're gonna get graded. Someone's gonna tell 'em if it was good or bad, right or wrong. Yep. And you're, you're by turning in your homework, you are basically inviting feedback. Yes. And you have to figure out how you're gonna take that feedback. And if it's not good, that's bad. Like it doesn't feel good. So it's like, if I don't turn anything in, I don't get any feedback and I'm just not doing it. It's better to not try and fail than it's to try and fail.

Lucas:

Yes. A piece of that too is the, and we've talked about this a little bit, but like the comparison.   we will unfairly compare ourselves to people who are excellent.  and have been doing this for years.   And because of that we are not adequate. Yeah. When we have, you didn't see the, like, how long it took for them to get there. Right. I've had countless conversations with kids who say that they're really bad at football. And I'm like, well, like, how would you know? You're good? And they're like, well, if I was as good as Justin Jefferson, like, like he's a pro athlete and he is an adult and he's been doing this his whole life.  like, yeah. He's better be better than you. Yeah. Like, that's just not fair. Right. You're six.

Christy:

Right. Well, and convert. I actually use professional sports a lot when it comes to people not wanting to try new things because they'll be, they'll be like, well, I had a terrible game and I'm awful at it. Whatever, whatever, whatever. It's like, have you, have you watched the Vikings play Love them? I do. But they throw a bad passes and they don't, and they drop footballs that hit them right in the hands.

Lucas:

You're not over that <laugh>.

Christy:

I'm not, I'm not over it. They miss field goals, you know, it's like, and their professional athletes that are literally getting paid. You are 14 years old on a high school team. You're not gonna be perfect. Right. And you shouldn't be. And to have that expectation is ridiculous because then you're idolizing these people, professional athletes that mess up all the time.

Lucas:

Right? Yeah.

Christy:

You know, it's like, why are you harder on yourself than we are on Justin Jefferson? Right.

Lucas:

Who also makes mistakes.

Christy:

Right. Not many though.

Lucas:

No <laugh>. No. We love you Justin. We, we

Christy:

Love you Justin

Lucas:

<Laugh>. And take that analogy and then implement that into anything.  comparison is the thief of joy. Yeah. And I, I really, really believe that. And when you can stop comparing yourselves to others and start comparing yourself to yourself.   you're going to feel much better and feel like you're making more progress, comparing today's version of you to yesterday's and seeing the progress that you've made.   That's what matters. Mm-Hmm.

Christy:

<Affirmative>. I think it's really important, the message that you send when you can tell somebody that you messed up or that you don't know what you're doing is really powerful. Because then it, it shows people that, oh my gosh, this person who I think knows everything, doesn't know this thing. Like Yeah. Yeah. Or they make a mistake. It's like when you, when you make mistakes and you're open about that, you allow others to make mistakes themselves and realize that it's not the end of the world. Right. I mean, we do this all the, I've been doing therapy for 20, 19.94 years. Wow. Well, that's, Shelby calculated it. Shelby is our boss and we love her. And there's stuff all the time that I don't know. Right. But, and, and we've got, we've got an awesome team of clinicians at Dakota Family Services. They're so good. And I will always tell them when I don't know, because I don't, and that's okay. I don't have to know everything. Right. I want to know everything, but I don't, and I'm very well aware that I don't, but if, if, if, if I can say I don't know something, then it allows somebody else to be like, I don't know that either. <Laugh> Yeah. And there and there's power in that.

Lucas:

Right. And that doesn't mean that you're a bad clinician. That actually means that you're a stronger clinician. Right. And I, we, we have a lot of interns. We do a lot of teaching.  other people how to be therapists. And your very first therapy sessions don't like go super great all the time.  like you're stumbling around. You're trying to figure out what, what you're doing. You're trying to figure out who you wanna be as a clinician. And I have had many people come into my office and talk about how I'm just not good at this. And that they're comparing to like you and me who have been doing this for a while.   And when I bring it back and I'm like, do you wanna hear what my first therapy sessions? 'cause They were some doozies. Oh my gosh. I got some fun stories <laugh> that we're not talking about today, Christy. Oh. But they're so fun. They're great. But it's, we have to remember that we are, we're, we're at where we're at.   And that's okay. We have to accept that.  in order to move forward.   We can't make ourselves be at step 10 when we haven't even crossed step one. Right. And it is just, you are exactly where you're supposed to be.   And this is exactly who you're supposed to be today.

Christy:

And you know what, you know what's really funny about those, the clinicians that come in and they're like, I really, I messed that up. Like that was bad. The client feedback loved it. Yep. Loved the session.   everything went great. Can't wait to come back. I know. It's all in, it's all in your head. Like, why can't you see the good things that you're doing instead of being focused on thinking that you're making a mistake or you're messing something up. Right.

Lucas:

'Cause most of the, the time it's just fine.

Christy:

Right. And the same goes for, I mean, not just that we're talking about work, because that's what we do, but the same goes with parenting. If parents can be like, you know what I'm, if you lose it on your kid and you are because you do. Absolutely. You do. Parents are gonna make mistakes. Yep. Kids are frustrating. Yep. And you, and you lose it. It the, the power that it has for you to come back and say, I am so sorry that I lost it. I did not react the way that I wanted to. That wasn't fair to you. It doesn't. That is so powerful for kids to have parents say, I messed that up.

Lucas:

Yeah. And, but when you're doing that, make sure you don't go too far and start saying, I'm such a bad parent. Oh, right. Yeah. Right. Everything in balance.   So yes. Apologize. It's super powerful.   The moment you cross into that negative self-talk that starts coming out loud.   you're teaching your kids how to talk to themselves when they make a mistake.   And they hold onto that and they can carry that with them for a while. For sure. So just be mindful of that.  just like the other side, if you never apologize, <laugh>. Right. That's not good either.

Christy:

No. 'cause then you give the impression that you don't think you can ever do anything wrong.

Lucas:

Absolutely.

Christy:

And that's not healthy.

Lucas:

<Laugh>. Nope. <laugh>, we always want to encourage you to ask the question, is it just me? You're likely not alone. And there is always a way to help. If anything we have talked about today resonates with you, please reach out.

Christy:

Do you have a topic you'd like us to talk about? Message us. We'd love to hear from you. Our email address is, is itjustme@dakotaranch.org or drop us a, a DM or a Instagram message. Facebook text us. However, however, send a plane, writing an owl. Anything else? Morse code. But I'm not really great at morse. My self-esteem in morse code is not great.

Lucas:

Oh my goodness. Don't forget to share us with your friends and family.

Speaker 4:

<Laugh>.

Announcer:

Thanks for listening to today's episode of Is It Just Me? To learn more or make an appointment for psychiatric or mental health services at Dakota Family Services, go to dakota family services.org or call 1 802 0 1 64 95.

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