About the Hosts

Christy Wilkieprovides therapy for children and adolescents, ages 5-25, who have complex behavioral health issues. She combines her extensive clinical expertise with a belief in kids, and has a unique ability to find and develop their strengths. She works hard to be an ideal therapist for her clients, doing what is best to fit their needs.

Lucas Mitzel provides therapy for children, adolescents, and adults, ages 5 - 30. He believes building relationships with clients is the most important piece of successful therapy. He loves what he does because it allows him to walk next to people he would never have met had he chosen a different profession, as they work to make amazing life changes. He has the honor of meeting people at their worst, all while watching them grow into the people they’ve always wanted to be.

Transcript
Can the World be Scary?

Featuring Christy Wilkie, LCSW, and Lucas Mitzel, LCSW, Dakota Family Services

Announcer:

This episode of, is It Just Me, is brought to you by Dakota Family Services, your trusted partner in mental and behavioral health, whether you need in-person or virtual care, the team of professionals at Dakota Family Services is dedicated to supporting children, adolescents, and adults in their journey to better mental health.

Christy:

Disrupting life patterns and life routines that aren't serving you.

Lucas:

It's how we feel that keeps us going.

Christy:

You can be a masterpiece and a work of art all at the same time.

Lucas:

Hey everyone, I'm Lucas.

Christy:

And I'm Christy.

Lucas:

And you're listening to the Is It Just Me podcast.

Christy:

Where we aim to provide education, decrease the stigma, and expel some myth around mental health.

Lucas:

Christy, is it just me? Or can the world be really scary?

Christy:

It can be really scary. Especially this time of year.

Lucas:

And why is that?

Christy:

Because we're in spooky season.

Lucas:

<laugh>. I just really wanted you to say that. And for those of you that can't see, there were like jazz hands and spear fingers going all over the place.

Christy:

Yes. Oh, spirit fingers takes a whole new

Lucas :

I know.

Christy:

In October.

Lucas:

This is crazy.

Christy:

Wow. <laugh>

Lucas:

Back on topic. We derailed real quick, there.

Christy:

Plus. Buckle up. This is, this is where we're at today.

Lucas:

It's been a week guys. Today we're talking about fear.

Christy:

Yeah.

Lucas:

So starting off, like what is fear?

Christy:

Fear is being, you know, deathly afraid of something to the point where it interferes in your daily life and you are avoiding things actively because you are so scared of them.

Lucas:

Yeah. It's, it's an emotion that, that we've developed through like evolution and it, it's what keeps us from doing things that may cause harm or even death. Right. And then there are times where that emotion can become disordered. Where our brains are protecting us from things that it just doesn't need to.

Christy:

No. Like I, I, I will self-disclose mine. I have an irrational fear of cotton balls.

Lucas:

Tell us about that. Christy.

Christy:

<laugh>. I, I, I honestly don't know where it came from, but I cannot, I can't stand them. I cannot, I don't wanna be around them. I can't think about it. I go get pedicures and I ask them to not use them. Is it cotton ball going to kill me? I mean, in my head sometimes I think it might <laugh>, but like, no, like rationally. I know that, that it's not, but like when Christmas season comes and people start putting those snow villages Oh yeah. It is rough. My hands are sweating <laugh>. Like literally.

Lucas:

Yeah. And it, she's not exaggerating.

Christy:

No.

Lucas:

Because there was one time where somebody pulled a prank on you and put cotton balls in your office.

Christy:

Yeah and it wasn't funny.

Lucas:

Yeah. No. That was a bad day.

Christy:

Yeah. It was not great <laugh>. And from then on, I, most people in this office look out for me. They're like, like we think that it's funny 'cause I can joke about myself pretty freely, but it's not funny <laugh>. Right.

Lucas:

Right. I remember somebody came up with the idea Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> who hadn't done it, who had didn't know about the story or whatever about the cotton balls. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Everybody goes like, no, don't do it.

Christy:

<laugh>, no bad idea. She like really is scared.

Lucas:

Right. No, this is a big deal. <laugh>. So a lot of times fear and anxiety get kind of put together and there is a difference. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and so fear is more of like a temporary state. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> of being Mm-Hmm. Whereas anxiety is more of a constant. And so fear comes from the amygdala being activated, which is just a part of our brain that is in charge of the fight or flight response. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and when sometimes things can happen in our environment or just maybe through trauma or just even just genetics can make us more vulnerable to this and it over responds or over activates to things that it really doesn't need to. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, and then we have things like phobias or other sort of Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> panic disorders or things going on.

Christy:

And sometimes it responds to things that it should react to. Like, if you are being chased by a bear, your fear response should kick in. Like your brain's job is literally to keep you alive. And it will do that. It's just sometimes the things that we think are going to cause us fear or take our lives <laugh> are not necessarily rational thoughts.

Lucas:

Right. Another way to think about it is anxiety is more about being prepared. Mm-Hmm. Whereas fear is you are in the moment that you prepared for. And so you're, you are responding in that moment.

Christy:

Yeah. It's like getting first with anxiety is worst fear, which is always why I'm so curious why I have so many people in my office who are anxious and what do they love? Scary movies.

Lucas:

Yes.

Christy:

I'm like, why are we doing that? <laugh> <laugh>, I don't understand what's happening here.

Lucas:

So there there's actually, it's funny 'cause there's actually science behind that. Nerd alert here. So when our brain has the fear response activated, there's a bunch of chemicals that get dumped in the brain. There's, uh, epinephrine, which is adrenaline. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that's about, that's the fight or flight response essentially. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. There's norepinephrine, which is the regulation of alertness, attention, cognitive function, and then different stress reactions you might have. Then there's cortisol, which is known as the, the stress hormone, but it helps the body prepare for action. And then some people have dopamine that gets dumped into your brain when there's a fear response and people who have larger dopamine dumps in their brain with, uh, being scared. Those are the people that like it because it feels good. Dopamine is the reward chemical.

Christy:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Lucas:

So some people, I'm not one of them, have a very large dopamine dump in their brain when they watch a scary movie or they're in a haunted house. Those sorts of things. I'm, that's, nope, not me.

Christy:

No. But I always think I'm going to like, I really do. Like I remember being little and my dad would take my brother who I think isn't afraid of anything probably, but they would go through like the haunted house and I would be like, I'm so excited. I'm so excited. You can do this, you can do this. And I'd get like three feet in and I'd be like, Nope. <laugh>. Turn around and walk right back out. Or with scary movies, like, Ooh, let's watch a scary movie. And then I just watch it with my eyes closed. And you can't do that by the way. You can't watch something with your eyes closed. But it's like, it just very quickly, like, I like the idea of doing something scary and then nope, I don't, actually.

Lucas:

Yeah. What's like, genre of scary movies? Like what are the scariest two?

Christy:

Psychological thrillers? Because I think when something is portrayed to me that I think could actually happen that is terrifying to me. Like the blood and guts and go, I'm like, that's kind of cheesy.

Lucas:

Yeah. I'm with you on that. I think a lot of the supernatural ones get me.

Christy:

Ooh. Yeah. Those are good too actually.

Lucas:

Yeah. And it primarily because of the jump scares. I just, man, it gets me every time. My, my wife is one of the people who gets a large dopamine dump.

Christy:

That surprises me zero about Rachel.

Lucas:

<laugh>. And, and so she loves them. And so she, uh, I will only watch them with her because I love her.

Christy:

Yeah. Wow.

Lucas:

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And she just laughs because I am just a little stress ball and then just something little happens and I jump outta the seat.

Christy:

Yeah, ecause you don't know what's gonna happen. And as anxious people, like I will do now I'm in a rabbit hole, but there are sometimes where I'll watch the end of a movie first. 'cause if I know how it ends, it relieves the anxiety that I have watching it otherwise, I don't enjoy watching it. If I don't know how it's gonna end.

Lucas:

I know people that used to read books that way.

Christy:

I do. I do that too. I'll read books backwards. Like, I'll read the end of the book, which people are like, you're ruining the book. It's like, no, I'm ruining the book if I'm anxious throughout the whole book, not knowing how it's gonna go.

Lucas:

Because you can't enjoy it.

Christy:

Yes.

Lucas:

Interesting.

Christy:

And then I, and then I speed read it without like really reading it. I'm like, I have to get to the end to see what's gonna happen. And it's not a very, it's not a great mindful activity when I'm doing that.

Lucas:

Well, now we're here, so we're gonna do this. So when you speed read it, do you, are you even enjoying it then?

Christy:

No, absolutely not. So you don't

Lucas:

Even enjoy reading, period?

Christy:

Well, I, I speed read with, I don't read the end. Like if I've read the end, then I can go back and not speed read it and I can just like, enjoy reading it.

Lucas:

Oh, sorry. I misunderstood that.

Christy:

Yeah. Yeah. But if I, if I don't read the end, I'm just like, I'll just speed read it and I miss all sorts of things. I know.

Lucas:

Huh. The more you know about Christy <laugh> cotton balls and speed reading.

Christy:

I'm not anxious though at, at all.

Lucas:

No. I'm sure we've convinced everybody. <laugh>. Uh, so when you have a fear or, or anxiety about a specific object or situation that presents little to no danger. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it is to a point where it is impacting your daily living or occasionally maybe even just impacts your daily living, but you have a very large response to that thing and you can't be around it or experience it or anything like that. What is that called?

Christy:

You may have a phobia.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

Yeah.

Lucas:

There's a billion of types of phobias and they all have really fun names.

Christy:

And it lives in the anxiety, I mean, the phobias live in the anxiety family for sure. And there, I mean, people are afraid of things that you don't even realize exist.

Lucas:

Oh yeah. And some of them, like, they're so interesting to me. I love working with phobias

Christy:

Because they, they're curable.

Lucas:

Right. That's what's really exciting for us. Anything that we can actually cure. We love working with.

Christy:

Because it's just, you know, few and far between. Trauma, phobias.

Lucas:

Night and day. Differences. It's really cool. And to see people work through that is just such an honor.

Christy:

It is, because they're doing such hard work and they're, it's so uncomfortable.

Lucas:

Yeah. And they're so proud of themselves. And they should be.

Christy:

Absolutely.

Lucas:

'cause it's, oh man, it's just so hard.

Christy:

I love my job actually.

Lucas:

We have the best jobs ever.

Christy:

<laugh>. We really do.

Lucas:

Uh, so, okay. I have a list of 10 phobias.

Christy:

Oh, okay.

Lucas:

Um, and I'm going to say them and you're going to guess what they're, what they are for.

Christy:

Oh my God.

Lucas:

So what the phobia is.

Christy:

Okay. So are most phobias written in like Latin, Greek?

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

Okay. <laugh>. Okay.

Lucas:

Um, now to make this fair, I'm not the one that's guessing things, but I am going to cold read these and they are very difficult words, <laugh>. And so I thought it was.

Christy:

Oh this is gonna be the mo that's probably the more entertaining part of this story.

Lucas:

So you guys get to hear me mispronounce these things.

Christy:

Beautiful.

Lucas:

So, um, if anybody is out there and knows how you pronounce these and I'm butchering it, I am sorry. I did not look up how to pronounce it. I was very tempted to, but I was like, that's only fair.

Christy:

No, let's just look like idiots together.

Lucas:

Yeah, exactly.

Christy:

Like, normal.

Lucas:

So we're gonna start with something that's easy and then we'll, we'll get to...

Christy:

Well, don't say it's easy as if I don't know what I'm...

Lucas:

You know what it is.

Christy:

Okay.

Lucas:

So agoraphobia.

Christy:

Oh, you don't wanna go outside?

Lucas:

Yeah. Nailed it.

Christy:

Fear of going outside.

Lucas:

Yep. Arachnophobia.

Christy:

Spiders.

Lucas:

Nailed it. Okay, now we're gonna start getting harder.

Christy:

Okay.

Lucas:

Coulrophobia.

Christy:

Cholera. Phobia. Like

Lucas:

COUL.

Christy :

Oh,

Lucas:

ROC.

Christy:

CO

Lucas:

See, I'm mispronouncing it, but..

Christy:

Fear of colors?

Lucas:

Clowns.

Christy:

Oh gosh.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

That's act That is a real thing.

Lucas:

Oh, absolutely. It's a real thing. <laugh>.

Christy:

Yeah.

Lucas:

Yeah. Oh boy.

Christy:

You should... I wish you could see his, I wish you could see his face.

Lucas:

Atychiphobia.

Christy:

A tick phobia. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um.

Lucas:

Or ay-tic-i-phobia? I don't know.

Christy:

Fear of getting bitten.

Lucas:

Ooh. Fear of failure.

Christy:

Oh, I have that <laugh>,

Lucas:

Right?

Christy:

Like save, that's rooted deep.

Lucas:

Barophobia or barra phobia.

Christy:

BAR mm-Hmm. <affirmative> bar phobia.

Lucas:

This one's really interesting.

Christy:

It Is not the fear of going to the bar.

Lucas:

Correct. It, it not that

Christy:

It be weird. A fear of being in your own skin.

Lucas:

Gravity.

Christy:

Oh, really?

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

Oh, that would, that would be unfortunate. 'cause I dunno if you know this gravity's everywhere.

Lucas:

You're lying. <laugh>

Christy:

Outer space maybe. No, but like most of us.

Lucas:

Yeah. And I don't, uh, I didn't look into what that actually looks like.

Christy:

Right, like.

Lucas:

But fascinating. That it's even a thing. Octophobia.

Christy:

Fear of the number eight.

Lucas:

Close fear of the figure eight.

Christy:

Oooh.

Lucas:

So that was pretty good. Uh, samhainophobia.

Christy:

Sam Hein. Sam, like. S-A-H-I-E-M

Lucas:

S-A-M-H-A-I-N.

Christy:

Oh. Fear of swings.

Lucas:

Fear of Halloween.

Christy:

Oh really?

Lucas:

Yeah. Thought that was fitting.

Christy:

That is fitting.

Lucas:

Um, thalassophobia.

Christy:

Fear of words.

Lucas:

The ocean.

Christy:

Oh yeah. I was really committed to the fear of words.

Lucas:

You were very confident and I'm sorry, I felt bad correcting you actually.

Christy:

Not even close. Not even close

Lucas:

Okay. This is the worst one. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that I, I am so, I'm sorry. Okay, go slow. Hipaa pot mastros phobia. <laugh>. I'm not joking.

Christy:

Okay. Well, I, okay. Um, I'm not gonna ask you to repeat that.

Lucas:

Thank you.

Christy:

But we're gonna go with fear of like hippo, like HY

Lucas:

I'll tell you, I'll give you a hint. It's ironic.

Christy:

That's not helpful. The fear of I of Alanis Morissette.

Lucas:

What?

Christy:

<laugh> She sings ironic. Don't you think?

Lucas:

Uh, the fear of long words.

Christy:

Oh, well.

Lucas:

Which was mean.

Christy:

Yeah, it was.

Lucas:

I just think that that was mean.

Christy:

That's, that's oh, that is ironic.

Lucas:

Right? Thank you.

Christy:

That's cruel.

Lucas:

Right?

Christy:

What do you have? I'm not telling you <laugh>.

Lucas:

You're right. I'm scared of it.

Christy:

I'm scared of what it's even named <laugh>.

Lucas:

Uh, man. Uh, a feba phobia. You're

Christy:

You're an A Feba phobia. <laugh>. A like A-F-E-D

Lucas:

E-P-H-E-B-I.

Christy:

Oh, fear of ideas.

Lucas:

Teenagers.

Christy:

Oh, well.

Lucas:

I I know a few people that probably have that. But yeah.

Christy:

Wow. I would've failed that trivia.

Lucas:

Well, I mean, you got two of them.

Christy:

I got,

Lucas:

Well, I'll give you, I'll give you three because of the eight.

Christy:

Okay. Yeah.

Lucas:

'cause of Octa.

Christy:

That was nice.

Lucas:

Yeah. I'll give you three.

Christy:

Okay. I really have to brush up on my Latin.

Lucas:

Right?<Laugh>. <laugh>.

Christy:

This is embarrassing.

Lucas:

And again, for anybody who like really is good at Latin, I am so sorry.

Christy:

I know.

Lucas:

So sorry.

Christy:

Email us

Lucas:

<laugh>

Christy:

Because that was I am I am certain that you butchered several of those.

Lucas:

But if I got most of them right. Also email us and tell me that.

Christy:

That's true. Look at you. And the perspective shift.

Lucas:

Here we go.

Christy:

I'm here for it.

Lucas:

Um, okay. So how do phobias even develop?

Christy:

That's a good question because if I knew how my fear of cotton balls developed, I would be, I'd figure that out.

Lucas:

Yeah. There's a lot of, it's interesting the research that's, uh, gone into that because you can't stop a phobia from developing Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. There's no real, like, surefire way to prevent a phobia. Like, if one's gonna develop, it's gonna develop. Um, but a lot of times for phobias it's because of a negative experience. With the thing that you are having a phobia with maybe learned responses from parents or siblings. So like an example of this would be if you have what's called like insect phobia. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> fear of insects.

Christy:

Oh see that one I would've known.

Lucas:

Right? <Laugh>. <laugh>.

Christy:

Thank you.

Lucas:

Uh, you, and like, it could be because maybe your parents were like terrified of bugs. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and so then watching how your parents respond to this or caregivers respond to this, you might learn that that is something to be afraid of. And then develop a phobia because of that. Mm-Hmm.

Christy:

<affirmative>. It's an, I I have, I'm working with someone right now who is afraid of needles.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

And, and, but not necessarily needles, just shots. Like not the idea of getting a tattoo doesn't bother them one bit, but the fear of getting a shot terrified, like blacks out, like hits people like bad news. But it comes from when he was younger and he had, um, the allergy shot tests where you get all of those, those shots all of the time. And I don't know that he was prepared for what that was, but like cannot that one experience for him has made him absolutely terrified of shots.

Lucas:

Yeah. This is just fascinating. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> how that happens. Genetics can also just make you more vulnerable. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> to it. It's not like if you parent, have a, parents have a phobia that you are now destined to have the same phobia. I've never met somebody with a phobia who doesn't have an underlying generalized anxiety disorder.

Christy:

What <laugh>.

Lucas:

So, uh, they're probably the anxiety there. And then it, you are more likely to develop a phobia if you're just generally anxious and on edge.

Christy:

I would assume that trauma, any sort of traumatic event Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> would cause a phobia. We, I mean we see that all the time.

Lucas:

Right, yep. Then people, sometimes people with, uh, phobias have entirely different brain structures. Mm. So there, there could be something like actually physically wrong with the brain and that can cause phobias to develop perhaps, uh, your amygdala is misfiring. Or something like that. So, and then also just long-term stress, which can make it harder to cope with certain situations. Increasing your likelihood of developing a phobia.

Christy:

Yeah. Funnel all of your fear into one thing.

Lucas:

Right. And then, like Christy has said, it's sometimes we just don't know. Sometimes it just happens. And really the, it doesn't matter, like the treatment doesn't change Mm-Hmm. Depending on what caused it, um, it can help make sense of it, which feels good. But it doesn't really matter.

Christy:

It doesn't change the way that we attack it or, you know, figure it out. And I think honestly, sometimes in the, I don't know, section, when you have intense fear responses, it is not uncommon to repress those memories. And so if you've created a, like a phobia or, or you have a phobia, it's, it's quite possible that you've put those memories in a box somewhere and are just not gonna open it <laugh>.

Lucas:

Right.

Christy:

Because your brain is wild like that.

Lucas:

What are some interesting phobias that you've treated?

Christy:

Fear of flushing the toilet is a big one. I get with a lot of little kids, I get that a lot. Um,

Lucas:

Like what are they, what are they afraid of specifically?

Christy:

Well, they're like, they, well, so a lot of, with these little kids, if you have to find the underlying thing, right? So this kid terrified of flushing the toilet could flush it at home, but like the big ones, like at the school or whatever, would not go to the bathroom. Would not, and which obviously is not feasible for children. And so as I'm talking to him, because I'm very open about just saying weird off the wall things. And so I just kind of started questioning him about different things. And anyway, it turned out that it was because he had watched Finding Nemo and in Finding Nemo the fish gets flushed away from his mother. And so he thought if he flushed the toilet and those big toilets, that he would get sucked down into the toilet and be, I mean, underlying separation anxiety disorder for sure. But that was his fear.

Lucas:

There you go. That makes perfect sense.

Christy:

Yeah or even just sometimes it's just, it comes down to being a sensory issue where it's, it's a loud noise and it looks like they're afraid of that one thing, but really it's like a sensory issue that we have to treat.

Lucas:

Right. Yeah.

Christy:

Which is definitely, I find that a lot in younger kids, but it's not uncommon for older people.

Lucas:

Right. Yeah. Um,

Christy:

Fear of, I've had people in a pool that had fear of the black line that runs underneath the pool.

Lucas:

Oh, interesting.

Christy:

Yeah.

Lucas:

Huh. What was gonna happen?

Christy:

They didn't even know. They just, they wouldn't get in the pool if there was a black line on the bottom.

Lucas :

I wonder what that's called. Fear of black lines?

Christy:

Black Line-a Phobia?

Lucas:

In pools. <laugh>

Christy:

<laugh>. A phobia. Black line in pool phobia.

Lucas:

Uh, some of the ones that I have, I've treated a lot of people with fears of fire alarms.

Christy:

Oh yeah. Same. Any sort of alarm.

Lucas:

And that actually has a name Ignite-er-ro-romra Phobia that I butchered that, but it's fine.

Christy:

It at least is something like that.

Lucas:

Yeah. Um, <laugh>, I've treated a bunch of people who are afraid of dogs.

Christy:

Ooh. Yeah.

Lucas:

As well. Um, I used to bring my dog. He was a therapy dog here, and he would help with that. It was really, really fun to do that. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I'll talk about that in a little bit when we get down to like more of the treatment stuff. But I've also talked about astro phobia, which is fear of storms.

Christy:

I was just gonna say that I get a lot of people that are afraid of storms.

Lucas:

Yeah. Any sort of storm cloud is gonna be a tornado and then I'm gonna die. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Christy:

Yep, we're gonna lose all of our stuff.

Lucas:

Yep. Lose my family.

Christy:

Yep. Everybody's gonna my dogs.

Lucas:

Right.

Christy:

Yep.

Lucas:

Or even just, um, like with the fire alarm, going back to that one, it was not so much the fire alarm itself, it's what the fire alarm meant. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So if there's a fire alarm, that means that there's a fire and if there's a fire, I'm gonna burn alive. Some of these kids have very dark thoughts. 'cause these phobias run wild

Christy:

Fear of getting in the lake. I have a lot of those. 'cause of the seaweed or what's gonna be in there if they're creatures or they just terrified to get into the lake. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Lucas:

Yep.

Christy:

Thalassophobia phobia or whatever.

Lucas:

Thalassophobia.

Christy:

Yeah, yeah.

Lucas:

And I've also had kids who are semi, they're scared of going into new buildings.

Christy:

Oh, sure.

Lucas:

And when we got down to the bottom of it, it was because fire could happen because one time they were in a hotel and the fire alarm went off and they were stuck in the stairwell. Trying to get out out. And that was really, really scary and loud and all of those things. So what happens is your brain connects that event with the fear or the really, and it doesn't want you to have that happen again. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so it's like building caused this, I was in a building when this happened, don't enter buildings ever again.

Christy:

Yeah. Yep.

Lucas:

And we just gotta get through that.

Christy:

Crazy generalization that your brain does.

Lucas:

Right, all to protect you.

Christy:

Yeah. It wants to keep you alive. And it's not a, it's not a good feeling to be fearful. And so your brain's like, we aren't doing that again. I'm not gonna feel like that again. Fear of driving.

Lucas:

Oh yeah.

Christy:

I get that one a lot. They're, they're just afraid that like every car is gonna slam into them. Mm-Hmm.

Lucas:

<affirmative> fear of driving in the dark. Or fear of driving in any sort of weather that's not just sunny and dry.

Christy:

Yep. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> Well, fear of the dark in general. We, so many times have we dealt with that and the, and the, and the answer isn't the same for everybody, which we'll get done into treatment, but it's not like this is the protocol for treating people who are afraid of the dark <laugh>.

Lucas:

Right? Yeah.

Christy:

Like, it's just, it doesn't always work like that.

Lucas:

Yeah, and sometimes the, um, like, uh, when it comes to separation, anxiety and phobias are very connected. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> a lot of the time. And so one time I was, I was working with a kiddo who had some pretty bad separation anxiety and it just came outta nowhere, seemingly. And what happened was, um, they had a, an early, like a death in the family of a sibling very, very young. And they finally were able to like, understand what happened. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And they were worried that that was going to happen again to either them or their family members. And so they were just constantly worried that something bad was gonna happen if they were separated. And, and so it's totally unreal. Like there was no, um, nobody breaking into the house. There was no like, bad experience when they did separate. It was just that there was a traumatic event years and years and years ago. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that finally clicked and then their brain responded in a, in a very specific way to keep them safe.

Christy:

Totally. You don't have a whole lot of control over that.

Lucas:

You have zero control.

Christy:

Okay. You have zero control <laugh>

Lucas:

Of it developing.

Christy:

You have zero control phobia over that.

Lucas:

Right?

Christy:

Yeah.

Lucas:

Yeah. Zero control phobia. Oh my God. I think that's just called anxiety. <laugh>

Christy:

Ac accurate. Yes.

Lucas:

But you do have control over what you do with it. And that's where we get into the treatment. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> aspect of things. So, um, the gold standard for treatment is called gradual exposure therapy.

Christy:

Gradual exposure. We love it.

Lucas:

It's actually a lot of fun.

Christy:

It's, it is fun.

Lucas:

Um,

Christy:

Because you get to see success.

Lucas:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So what, when you do gradual exposure therapy, what's like, how do you approach that?

Christy:

Um, like let's just say that you're afraid of going into the water, right? And, and it depends on where you are in your phobia because there are, like, there are severities, but, um, a lot of times I'll start with, can we think about the water? Can we think about going through and do like some visualizations where we are not ever near a lake, but let's just, let's just think about what that looks like and do some visualizations and then like walk through, you know, what that might look like if you went there. And then at some point you get to a lake and you just look at the lake and you're just like, and then you, you're like, on a scale of one to 10, how are you feeling? And you teach them like mindfulness skills or, um, relaxation skills to kind of work through any of the, the things that they have so they can see that those skills are actually gonna work. Like they're not just hocus pocus things that Oh, hocus pocus. Even in the October episode. Oh, look at that.

Lucas:

Look at that.

Christy:

Um, they're not just hocus pocus things that we say because we're like deep breathing. They're like, okay, no deep breathing works. Okay. Mm-Hmm. Mindfulness works. Like all of those things work. And so we teach them those skills and then as they're getting closer and closer, you know, maybe, maybe you started just looking at the lake and now you're, this is really long, but this is how it works. <laugh>. Then you look at, okay, let's go outside and look at the lake. Let's get to the dock and look at the lake. Let's put our toe in the lake. Let's, and you know, just kind of go on and on and on like that. But all the way through there, you're coaching them on how to regulate how they're feeling inside. And I always do a scale of one to 10, how are you feeling? What can we do to bring it down? And then once we do some skills, okay, after use the scale now what are you at? And it almost always goes down until they're like, jumping in the lake, you know?

Lucas:

Right. So like when, all of that, and then also, uh, it's really important when we start exposure therapy to start with like a very clear goal. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Right. So for example, with the, uh, dog example, I needed to know like, are we shooting for like wanting to own a dog? Are we shooting for like, just to be in a park with a dog like 50 feet away from us? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Are we needing to be like, okay, with a dog coming up to us? Like, where do we need to be here? Because that is going to drive where, um, the end is for our exposure therapy. If you're just never gonna, like, if you, like, the goal is not to make you like whatever it is that you're afraid of. It's just to be able to deal with it.

Christy:

Tolerate it.

Lucas:

Right. Like if

Christy:

With minimal distress.

Lucas :

Right. And so it's like if for example, I'm gonna use Christy's, um, <laugh> cotton ball thing here. If Christy couldn't even be like in like, with an eyesight of a cotton ball Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like that could be problematic. In some areas, right? And so the goal might be I want to be able to be in the same room, but she doesn't need to, unless her job required cotton balls. To be in her hands, that would be horrible. <laugh>. Uh, but unless that was the case, there's no need to go any further than that. So finding what your goal is is really important. And then creating what's called an exposure hierarchy, which is what you were, you were talking about. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I call it the, like the ladder method or just using a ladder because I, I draw a ladder and then we go, we start at the lowest rung. And so like, if you're scared of ladders like me, um, <laugh>, I can't stand heights.

Christy:

<laugh>. Ladder-a phobia.

Lucas:

Right. Ladder-a phobia. You would start at the lowest rung that you maybe get to like a four or a five in distress. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> any higher, your brain starts shutting off and we don't want that. So we sit there and then the important thing is that when you start doing the exposure work, you don't stop. Uh, if you stop mid exposure, you're gonna reinforce the fear. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it's gonna make it harder next time. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So anytime you do this, you're gonna wanna make sure that you are able to stay there for a while.

Christy:

Committed.

Lucas:

You need to be committed. And this is why it's important to do this with somebody helping you. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I can't tell you how many times I, it seems like everybody that I work on phobias with, they, I mean, they want it gone now. And so they're like, they overshoot their goals. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I'm like, let's pull that one back a little bit. Let's try down here first. And then we'll get there eventually.

Christy:

Because they're just flooding <laugh>. But that's not great.

Lucas:

Right. So then first sessions like Christy had said is gonna be more about like psychoeducation Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, which is just a fancy word for saying education and distress tolerance techniques. So, so like being able to relax those sorts of things and then figuring out with a person, like what is it exactly that you're scared of happening? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, like with a dog, what's gonna go wrong if you're in the presence of a dog, maybe for education? Um, this is what I've done with people. Like how to read body language of a dog. So when, like, what's the difference between a dog that's going to attack me versus a dog that's just really excited? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Because to a little kid they can look very similar. What does a tail wig look like? What does it mean when the dog's ears are up versus down? That sort of thing. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then maybe we would bring pictures or videos of dogs. Maybe we would have dogs barking over, like, I might have my computer playing dogs barking or something like that in the background while we play a game. And like Christy had said, checking in every now and again and then doing any skills that need to happen. And then I started bringing my dog. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, which was always a big day. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And we would start with like, I would have the dog in somebody else's office and then maybe the last 15 minutes we would, we'd be prepping for this the whole time. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> in session. And like the last 15 minutes I would have the dog come out, we'd be in the hallway, and then they would just get as close as they could until they were feeling stressed. And then they would just sit there and the dog would hang out.

Christy:

And he was the best good boy.

Lucas:

He was, he was the goodest boy. <laugh>. The important thing with um, doing any sort of stuff with an animal though, is that the, you need to have full control of that animal because you need to have full control of the situation.

Christy:

Because it would be really bad if you brought an animal that you didn't trust and then they did the thing that the person was afraid that they were gonna do. That would not be good work.

Lucas:

Right <laugh>. Yeah. That would be really, really bad. And then eventually we would bring the dog closer and closer to maybe like, they're petting the dog while the dog is focused on somebody else. Maybe eventually they're walking the dog. In some cases, for some people I would get, um, my dog really, really excited so that he was jumping and like running around and stuff and they would deal with that. And then eventually they're good to go and they're like petting dogs and hanging out with dogs. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and playing with dogs and they just feel really great.

Christy:

Right.

Lucas:

So,

Christy:

Um, I think another thing that also works or it has worked is if you've got very like, intellectual kids and they want to know, or people, I shouldn't just say kids, but people and just understanding how things work can be really, really helpful. So like with, I had a kid who was like super afraid of just loud noises. Like, could, wouldn't go anywhere where there was a loud noise, just could not handle it. And so we looked and we said, you know, this is when when an alarm goes off, this is what's going on inside of it. And he was like, oh, this. Then we, we came up with a mantra that was sounds are just vibrations.

Lucas:

Yeah. I like that.

Christy:

You know, because it's like, who's afraid of a vibration? Well, I'm sure someone is afraid. <laugh>, of a vibration.

Lucas:

I'm sure that it was on the list, I just missed it.

Christy:

Vibration-a phobia, <laugh>. Um, but, but when he could conceptualize that the sound is just vibration and, and knowing that was it. So anytime he went in that he'd be like, sounds are just vibrations sounds are just vibrations. And we practiced it over and over and over where it was like anytime he went into some place, he just picked sounds are just vibrations. And it gave him so much more confidence to that he was in control over knowing what it was that was causing him distress. That he was just like, I can do this.

Lucas:

Yeah. Yeah. I think so. A lot of people very well-meaning people either to them do this to themselves or to their kids. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> they try to do exposure therapy without the guidance of somebody who's trained in it.

Christy:

Don't do that.

Lucas:

Please don't, you can make it way worse. And a lot of times people will just like the client, the parents or you as a person doing it to yourself will overshoot the exposure. And then it just, you, you flood and it didn't work and then you feel really gross and defeated. And you're like, what is wrong with me.

Christy:

Right. Well, and I think sometimes that that happens because people that don't understand phobias or don't have one can be like, why are you scared of something so dumb? And then they judge it and it's like, you should just be able to do this thing. Why are you afraid of jumping the lake? I'm just gonna show you that the lake is fine and I'm gonna throw you in the lake. And just to show you that it's fine, don't judge phobias if somebody is terrified enough that they are avoiding something at all costs, come and talk to somebody. Because you can do way more damage by not trusting that person and throwing them into a situation that you are not capable of managing. And it's going to make it worse.

Lucas:

Yeah. There's a difference between being like uneasy with something and you're just like super not, you're just not really confident. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and then like, encouraging your kids or encouraging yourself to just keep going. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that's fine. But if they're having like a huge reaction to it, maybe just pull back a bit. Go slower or maybe ask for help. Especially if it's a huge reaction to the thing. That you're trying to do.

Christy:

And if it's a kid, that's all part of what we do in therapy is the parents are involved. For sure. Who or whoever the, the kid's support person is, or an adult support person, we bring them in and they're a part of it. 'cause we have to coach them on how to deal with things when thing, like how can you tell when you're pushing too far and when you're not and when you need to not push Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but that's all part of what we do. Like we will help you figure that out. So that it's done in the most effective way possible.

Lucas:

Yeah. And sometimes, sometimes we overshoot, we get it wrong. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> maybe because maybe the kid was feeling really confident that week and thought that they could do the thing. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so then I will always coach the, the parents and say like, okay, this is the homework. This is what we gotta try to do exposure with this week. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Now if they react this way, just stop. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> just let it go. We'll talk about it. We'll plan again. But don't push harder just because it was a therapy assignment or whatever.

Christy:

Right. And there, there are times when, when it's just the idea of something is way more scary than them actually doing it. And they'll go, they're like, this isn't that bad. I had a a, a person one time who was afraid of checking out of anything, like of a store or whatever. And so they would avoid going in stores because they didn't know how to get outta the store without buying something. And so once we got them in the store and we're like, if we went through, this is how you do. And I was like, okay, just go to the parking lot and see how that goes. And then they come in the next week and they're like, I went in, I bought something. They were really nice to me. My card worked. I'm good. I was like, okay, well.

Lucas:

Yeah. Cool. Magic.

Christy:

I'm so, I'm so good at this <laugh> <laugh>. But really it was just, it was just that the idea of something the unknown, which is more of an anxiety thing than a phobia, is, is when you can kind of tow the line between the two when it's like, it's just the fear of the unknown that you thought that they were gonna go in and you weren't gonna have money on your card, but you've got money on your card. Let's check your account. Like it's gonna be fine. And it was.

Lucas:

Right. I found a lot of times actually working with phobias, um, and even just regular anxieties too, that there's like this invisible wall that nobody knows exactly what it is, but like that's the real issue. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And as soon as we expose ourselves to that, realize that that's fine. All of a sudden they like get better really, really fast. I was thinking, one of the kids that I worked with who was scared of coming in the building, um, we would do therapy out in their truck. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> <laugh> For,

Christy:

For a long time.

Lucas:

Long time. Long, long time. And eventually we started, uh, like you wouldn't even come outta the truck. And so then eventually we were walking in the grass and then eventually we looked in the window to my office and then we went into the entryway and then came back in Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> or came back outside and then all of a sudden outta nowhere, I get, I hear his voice in the building. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I'm like, what is going on?

Christy:

I don't think we're at this part yet.

Lucas:

Right. <Laugh>. And it was like, that wasn't an assignment. He just did it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> because all we, whatever that was that we exposed him to it, it fixed it, it, it was well better. And ever since it's been great. There's been no fears.

Christy:

No. It and, and that, that does happen sometimes where it's like, and and sometimes they'll generalize. Right. So like, if they realize that you can go into one store and it's like, that's fine, then all of a sudden all stores are fine. Or if you learn to tolerate a loud noise and you were, you were avoiding going to games and you're avoiding going to parades, you're avoiding going to circuses, you're avoiding going to parties. You can get them to understand that one situation that sound isn't gonna hurt you. Then all of a sudden the other ones kind of, they're like more willing to do the other things. I follow this guy on TikTok. I was telling Lucas about him the other day. He's got Arfid, which is a fear of like different foods. Like he literally in his a banana is like his worst fear. His name is Arfid Andrew. And he started doing this a long time ago. And it's like, once he got used to the idea that he could try something and it wasn't gonna kill him, he's become like way more open to trying it. And it's been, it's been cool to watch him do it, but he's got like super supportive people, but behind him that are like, you got this. Just take a little bite. And then they don't push him. If he's like, I'm done, I'm done. They're like, you're done. You tried it. Good for you. But there, I think that's a, there is a lot of food phobias too that we deal with.

Lucas:

Yeah. A lot of 'em. The big thing here is like if you have a loved one who's expressing a fear like this, uh, validate. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> because emotions are always valid. The thoughts behind them might be irrational. So to explain that a little bit more, like if I believe something that is irrational, but I believe it, that fear or that emotion makes sense Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> based off of thinking that that is truth. Right. So if I can change how I'm thinking about that, then my emotions will follow. Hashtag cognitive behavioral therapy.

Christy:

hastag <laugh> <laugh>

Lucas:

And that. But that takes a lot of work sometimes to get there. So sitting there and telling 'em like, no, you're fine. Everything's fine. Calm down. It doesn't work.

Christy:

It never did. It never does. If it, if that worked, we would be out of a job.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

Yeah. And I think when you come back to like, not being judgmental, it's kind of like what I was talking about with getting frustrated with people that have these fears. But a lot of times people will take people's phobias and make them into jokes and make them into pranks. I've got a friend who's deathly afraid of clowns, who's got clown-a phobia or whatever it was that you called it. And, and instead of, and he's, he had a friend who like put a red balloon in his yard one day, like the IT clown.

Lucas:

Oh. That was, that's not nice.

Christy:

And that's just not very nice, you know, and it's not funny. Like, that's not funny. Like putting cotton balls in my office is not funny.

Lucas:

No, no. That was super distressing. I bet for them.

Christy:

Or people that are afraid of like spiders and they like, they'll have somebody be like, take a spider and be like, Ooh, it's gonna be funny to scare you. That's not funny.

Lucas:

No, no.

Christy:

Let's not do that.

Lucas:

Yeah. <laugh>, <laugh>, uh, when it comes to like, kids, especially like role modeling, like how to prevent fears in general, like role modeling, how to do the thing that they're worried about or anxious about. Um, or how to act in a certain situation. So like if you come across in my house, like my kid's three, turning four, can't believe he's turning four this year.

Christy:

And he's so cute.

Lucas:

Oh my god. He's the best.

Christy:

He can't even deal with that.

Lucas:

Anyways, I could break, I could break about my kid all day. Uh, but I won't. He gets a little anxious around bugs sometimes. And so we, we talk about them and I try my best to role model. Like, you don't need to be afraid of them. And we come up to them and we just look at them and then just really try to be calm. And I really try to role model those things. And it has really helped him to kind of dampen that anxiety Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> around bugs and be more of like an interest. And now, like recently at daycare, they found a spider in the room.

Christy:

Of course they did.

Lucas:

And then he, they took a picture and he was like right in it.

Christy:

Oh, good for him.

Lucas:

Yeah. He's making a lot of progress there.

Christy:

That's all well be If you think about it, if you, if you're around, if there's something that you're scared of, and then a person, especially with little kids, if there's a person who you trust, who you is, you're trusting to protect you and keep you safe, is scared of something and you're going, ah, then the kids are going, ah. You know, like every, everybody's scared. When the adult that's in the room is scared, the person that's supposed to keep keep you safe and take care of you is scared. You're gonna be scared.

Lucas:

Right. Yeah.

Christy:

And you kind of, every, and this is just in general, you kind of match the energy of the people that are around you. And so if every, if if there's a whole room full of scared people, you're gonna be like, well, I wasn't scared of this before, but everybody else is. So I guess I am too. <laugh>, I guess I should have been <laugh>.

Lucas:

I'm supposed to be scared here. There's a term called Socratic questioning. Which is a, it's something that we do in therapy all the time. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But it's really just trying to get down to the bottom of what's going on. And you can do this with your kids. It's a lot easier than it sounds. But an example of this was my kid came out of his room and he said that he was worried that something bad was gonna happen. And this was maybe the 10th time he came out of his room. And so like, I was getting frustrated, but he, he came out and he said he was scared. And so I had a good dad moment.

Christy:

You have several of them.

Lucas:

Well. Thank you. Um, and we just talked about it. What's going on, what's gonna happen. He's like, well, somebody's gonna, um, a car's gonna come in and get me. And I was like, has that ever happened before? Like, no. Okay. Where do cars drive on the road? Is your room on the road? No. So are you safe? Yes. And then he was fine. Doing those little exercises with kids can be really, really helpful. And Socratic questioning is great because people come to the conclusion themselves. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then it's much more believable when we do the work ourselves.

Christy:

When you're not being a jerk. Like you're not being condescending. 'cause I think it's easy to be like, where it's a, it's dumb to believe that a car is gonna come into your house. Like that's stupid. Go to bed. That doesn't get you anywhere. You're not getting to the bottom of, of what a child is thinking because they don't know that. Like they don't know the rational side of things, but you have to help them. So you just like asking the questions and, and they're like, oh yeah. And you kinda see the light bulb go off. It's really, it's so fun. 'cause they're like, oh, <laugh>. Good point. Alright. Night dad.

Lucas:

Yeah. And that's exactly how it went. Yeah. Other things you can do too is like, uh, if you notice that they're really anxious about something or like a random fear all of a sudden comes up. This is a really funny story. It's about my kid. Again, I have so many stories about my kid, <laugh>.

Christy:

He just said he, he could talk about his kid all day, but he is not going to, but he is.

Lucas:

I'm going to apparently <laugh>. Sorry, I lied. Not sorry. Uh, so he, he's going to the bathroom once, somewhere at some point he was sitting on the toilet and the lid came up a little bit and I think it pinched his thigh or his his butt or something like that. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so then he became really nervous to sit on it because he didn't wanna get hurt again. And so then he would tell me to lift him up and put, and he can do it himself. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And we're really working on being, um, independent that way. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so what we did is we broke it down step by step. I was like, okay, put your hands right here to hold the lid down and then just scoot your butt. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then I helped him do it just a little bit. And then he did it mostly. And then this is the big part, celebrate that.

Christy:

Yeah! All the time.

Lucas:

You have to celebrate, make it a big deal to reinforce it. And then it showed him that he can do it and nothing bad happened. It was just a freak accident one time. It's not gonna happen every time. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and everything's fine.

Christy:

Yep, yeah. You And, and celebrating. Celebrating every step along the way. Like it, I think for some people it feels dumb to celebrate something that you see everybody else do without, without it being an issue. But if you can sit and look at something that's terrifying for you for five minutes, oh my gosh, that's excellent. Good for you. Like, let's figure out a way to celebrate that every step along the way.

Lucas:

You can also practice practice it safely. So like with the extra support, maybe like climbing up a ladder, um, for example. And then having somebody hold your kid. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then once they get to the, the top, celebrate that Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and be like, okay, now you try Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> without, and then you're, you're right there. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Just in case, but you're not holding them. So they are doing it themselves. And then they're like much more confident doing it because they did it once. This is just a little tricks that you can do to help kids get over things before it becomes a bigger deal.

Christy:

Right. Which also as we've talked about in other podcasts, builds mastery. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and mastery drops some dopamine. When you do that. And so it's like, oh, I can do that. I'm, I'm gonna take on another challenge because mastering something feels really good.

Lucas:

Yeah. And what a great bonding experience to have with your kids.

Christy:

Oh, totally. Yeah.

Lucas:

It, it's super fun to help kids get over that. As a parent. So now what about like for yourself, let's say Christy, that I have a fear of heights, <laugh>

Christy:

Just totally hypothetically.

Lucas:

Hypothetically, but like, I don't think that I need to like, go in and get like exposure therapy. It's not like that bad, but I just want to start working on that. Mm-Hmm. What are some things that I could do for myself?

Christy:

Well, I think you go, you think about you have a goal, you start with a goal and, and sometimes your goal and your goals can shift. If your goal, if you're afraid of heights, is like, go up two rungs of a ladder. Okay. Now what's your next goal? So like, we've talked about this in goal setting before, it's like the littler steps the better. But doing a lot of the things that we talked about without, without going into therapy. But you can do some of those same things. It's like, well what, how can you figure out how to get your heart rate down? How can you use coping skills? How can you use deep breathing? How can you, what are some things in the world that you could try that aren't maybe your final goal, but that are also challenging? You can be like, oh, I did that. Like, you maybe wanna hike a little hill and then you maybe wanna hike a little farther. Because once you realize that doing those things isn't gonna kill you, you're like, okay, this isn't so bad. I can do this.

Lucas:

Yeah. I, uh,

Christy:

Hypothetical.

Lucas:

Hypothetical. Yes. Yes. I am definitely not working on that to try and hike a really dangerous mountain.

Christy:

Oh my god. <laugh>. Which I'm still not 100% on board with, but it's fine.

Lucas:

I know everything will be fine. Sure, sure, sure. But so my plan is to, uh, do some like rock climbing in an actual gym where you're like harnessed up. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and like practice going up high and coming down all by myself that way and do some other hikes that go up high. Those sorts of things. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, um, to just gradually expose myself to the big one. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that I wanna do. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it's gonna be great. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Christy:

Yep.

Lucas:

Still hate ladders. <laugh>.

Christy:

It's like this, this man is afraid of a ladder, but he'll go and he'll hike the side of a mountain.

Lucas:

It's different.

Christy:

Oh god. <laugh>.

Lucas:

Yeah. Because it's irrational.

Christy:

Because one you're not gonna die. And the other one you totally could.

Lucas:

I guess. But yeah.

Christy:

Anyway. I mean, it is different. <laugh> not in the same, we're just not, not in the same way.

Lucas:

Your right. <laugh>. Oh man. So the bi, and I would say if you're, if you're going through a phobia and you're trying to treat it, one of the biggest things that I run into that I have, I remind people all the time, and I wanna remind you if you relate to any of this, is be kind to yourself. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you are not stupid, you are not dumb, you're not overreacting, you're not whatever. Your brain is misfiring. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it's not your fault. In fact, I would say be thankful for your brain for trying to protect you.

Christy:

Right, exactly.

Lucas:

Because that's the goal. But then gently reminded that you're okay. And you don't really need protection right now.

Christy:

Well, and this is, we've talked about this before too, but I had somebody who they'll preface it by saying, I know it's weird, or I know this is dumb. I know this is stupid. And when you say those things about yourself, it's not good for the depression side of your head too, is you're like, oh my gosh, this is so stupid. I should just be able to do this. I should don't should on yourself. But like you, no, you shouldn't. If your brain is, your brain is working against you. And anytime you use those judgment words that we're trying to get away from, it tells it just com, it continues to tell yourself that you are no good, that you are dumb, that you are bad. And so reframe those words and don't use the judgment words towards yourself ever. Or try not to make it, try to make an active, an active, what do you call it?

Lucas:

Sorry hanging

Christy:

Effort. An active effort. Yes. There we go. To not use judgmental words towards yourself. Because it can, it can cause other mental health issues when you start doing stuff like that.

Lucas:

Yeah. And it's never true.

Christy:

No.

Lucas:

Yeah. I mean, you're always better than what you think you are.

Christy:

Yes. 100%.

Lucas:

I should listen that too.

Christy:

<laugh>. Yeah, <laugh>. It's way easier to tell that to other people.

Lucas:

We want to, uh, we always want to encourage you to ask the question, is it just me? You're likely not alone. And there is always a way to help. If anything we have talked about today resonates with you, please reach out.

Christy:

Do you have a topic you'd like us to talk about? Message us. We'd love to hear from you. Our email is, isitjustme@dakotaranch.org? Or you can text us, DM us Facebook message us Instagram message us, whatever you wanna do. Just find a way to get in touch with us and we're, we're pretty nice.

Lucas:

One of us is.

Christy:

Which one? We'll never tell.

Lucas:

<laugh> <laugh>. And don't forget to share us with your friends and family.

Announcer:

Thanks for listening to today's episode of Is It Just Me? To learn more or make an appointment for psychiatric or mental health services at Dakota Family Services, go to dakotafamilyservices.org or call 1 800 2 0 1 64 95.

Other Podcast Episodes