About the Hosts

Christy Wilkie provides therapy for children and adolescents, ages 5-25, who have complex behavioral health issues. She combines her extensive clinical expertise with a belief in kids, and has a unique ability to find and develop their strengths. She works hard to be an ideal therapist for her clients, doing what is best to fit their needs.

Lucas Mitzel provides therapy for children, adolescents, and adults, ages 5 - 30. He believes building relationships with clients is the most important piece of successful therapy. He loves what he does because it allows him to walk next to people he would never have met had he chosen a different profession, as they work to make amazing life changes. He has the honor of meeting people at their worst, all while watching them grow into the people they’ve always wanted to be.

Transcript
Confronting Narcissism

Featuring Christy Wilkie, LCSW, and Lucas Mitzel, LCSW, Dakota Family Services

Announcer:

This episode of, Is It Just Me?, is brought to you by Dakota Family Services, your trusted partner in mental and behavioral health, whether you need in-person or virtual care, the team of professionals at Dakota Family Services is dedicated to supporting children, adolescents, and adults in their journey to better mental health.

Christy: 

Disrupting life patterns and life routines that aren't serving you.

Lucas:

It's how we feel that keeps us going.

Christy:

You can be a masterpiece and a work of art all at the same time.

Lucas:

Hey everyone, I'm Lucas.

Christy:

And I'm Christy.

Lucas:

And you're listening to the Is It Just Me podcast.

Christy:

Where we aim to provide education, decrease the stigma and expel some mess around mental health.

Lucas:

Christy, is it just me or does everyone think their ex is a narcissist?

Christy:

It is a very common theme. I feel like it is a very trending word.

Lucas:

It is overused at this point.

Christy:

100% overused.

Lucas:

I've got, I dunno about you, but I have people who come into my office all the time who are like, I think my ex is a narcissist. My dad's a narcissist.

Christy:

My mom's a narcissist.

Lucas:

Am I a narcissist?

Christy:

Right. <laugh> Yup

Lucas:

<Laugh>. So I think it's a good thing to talk about.

Christy:

I do too.

Lucas:

So let's start. What is a narcissist?

Christy:

Narcissists are people who, it's really all about them. They lack empathy. They are manipulative. They gaslight people. They need excessive admiration. Uh it's just, and and they'll take little jabs at people to make themselves feel like, like they are better than everybody else.

Lucas:

Yeah. Narcissism. So the formal diagnosis is narcissistic personality disorder.

Christy:

N-P-D.

Lucas:

N-P-D. And a personality disorder is when you have a pattern of behavior that is like, it's perverse, meaning that it's, it's everywhere. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> in how you act and who you are. It's essentially, it yeah.

Christy:

It's literally, literally, who you are.

Lucas:

Who you are as a person and so, and NPD in particular, like you had talked about, is a pattern of grandiosity or like just this grandiose or like a big feeling of just superiority. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, that's the word I was looking for.

Christy:

Can only be around important people. Only wanna associate with people who.

Lucas:

You need admiration and typically this would start in early adulthood. You could probably see signs of it in adolescence Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> building. And it would be present in multiple contexts with a bunch of there's a, we'll go through some of the diagnostic criteria today, but.

Christy:

Fun.

Lucas:

It is fun, Christy. So the very first one is a grandiose sense of self-importance. So like, exaggerated achievements, talents expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements or really without any reason.

Christy:

Right and, and, and it can even be stupid things. <Laugh>, you know, like, no, I can build the highest card house <laugh>, mine is, mine is larger than yours. You know, it just, it can be anything. And then they feel like people need to be like, you are the best at that.

Lucas:

Yeah. And they, as they, they assume that that's gonna happen. Yeah. Like they go into something thinking that they're the best and they assume everybody else thinks they're the best. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then they also will downplay or devalue other people's contributions. Like they're the, like if it's a group project, they did everything. Yep.

Christy:

I really did do everything in my group project to be fair.

Lucas:

I was just. I was just about to say, so did I, but like it's,

Christy:

But there's no proof.

Lucas:

Right. It's not true. Right. There's a difference there. We're gonna, we're gonna read off some of these things and people are gonna be like, oh my gosh,

Christy:

I'm a narcissist.

Lucas:

I'm a narcissist. Spoiler alert, if you're questioning whether or not you're a narcissist, there's a good chance you're not.

Christy:

You're not. Because with, I was talking with our sound guy, Doug earlier today, he's like, do narcissists really even go in for treatment? And I was like, actually, they don't, that's why there's not, there's not a whole lot of research, like valid research.

Lucas:

I've had one.

Christy:

Because they don't, they don't because they don't see a, a problem. And so the ones that do come in are the ones that are either forced by a partner or a parent or some, an employer because they need to have therapy. But yeah. They're, I mean, they don't really think they have a problem. So.

Lucas:

Yeah and therapy with a narcissist is really interesting. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> because oftentimes they're not talking about themselves. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And if they are talking about themselves, it's about how great they are. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then when you circle things back to themselves, that makes them very uncomfortable. A lot of times, a lot of, there's some research that shows that narcissists who go to therapy actually become worst narcissists because they learn how to manipulate better.

Christy:

Yeah. Oh, that's, that's not the goal.

Lucas:

No, no, it's not. And really what you're doing with somebody who's a narcissist is you're trying to convince them that the maladaptive behaviors they have Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> are not as effective as a, the positive behaviors. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And so trying to convince them that you can get more of what you want from people if you don't manipulate, if you actually just like ask them for what you want, for example. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So really you're teaching them how to fake it till they make it 'cause it's just who they are.

Christy:

It is, it is not curable <laugh>.

Lucas:

Right. Yep.

Christy:

It's just, it's just who they are.

Lucas:

Oftentimes narcissists are preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited power, brilliance, beauty, ideal love. So this could be like, they just are constantly thinking about these things. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And they're ruminating over these fantasies of achieving this one day. They're probably talking about it a lot. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Maybe even comparing themselves to people who are really, really famous. Mm-Hmm.

Christy:

<Affirmative>, The ideal love is problematic if you're in a relationship with a narcissist, because they will go out and have affairs and really see nothing wrong with that. 'cause They don't understand how that impacts you. They don't care.

Lucas:

Right. They can they are able to, many times are able to cognitively rationalize empathy. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> so they can understand that something can hurt someone, but they don't feel it. They, they're missing that really important part of empathy. The,

Christy:

Right, the feeling it part.

Lucas:

Right. and so that,

Christy:

That is literally what empathy is. <Laugh>

Lucas:

Well, there's first understanding it, there's the cognitive aspect of it and then there's the feeling of it. Which is the most important part of it. So yeah. They can understand it, but they don't, they don't actually experience empathy. Um and obviously that's very problematic in relationships.

Christy:

Yeah. I I, I always, as much as we don't see the act, typically the narcissists come into the office. We do see the victims of the narcissist.

Lucas:

I was gonna say, we get, we get all their victims.

Christy:

Very commonly come into the office and I'll, I'll, I'll ask them sometimes, like, like there's a, right now, I don't know when we're gonna drop this podcast, but right now there's a hurricane in Florida, right? Yeah. And so you ask some, does your partner care that there's a hurricane in Florida? Like, is there any like innate empathy for what they're going through? And they're like, no. They're just like, why are they living in Florida? Like, that's what would happen. Like that's a very, they're just dumb nar Yeah. That's a very narcissistic response. Where most people are like, gosh, it's, that's really sucky and like, feel bad for them and whatever, and they just don't.

Lucas:

Yeah, absolutely. And there are, there are times where we can maybe be visiting with somebody who struggles with empathy. Mm-Hmm. But they're not narcissists. I know that, like I've somebody with autism, for example can have a hard time connecting with their empathy Mm-Hmm. Or understanding from other people's point of view. Um, and so they might be like, well, why are they living in Florida? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But it's the difference there is their motivation behind it. Oftentimes narcissists are saying that because, 'cause they'll attach it with, see, I'm brilliant 'cause I live in North Dakota.

Christy:

Right. Where they're, I don't have to worry about a hurricane.

Lucas:

Right so don't be an idiot. Live somewhere where it's actually safe like I do. Whereas somebody that's how smart I'm, whereas somebody else would just be like, well, I just don't understand.

Christy:

Right, right. And I feel like, I feel like people and everybody, not everybody who has autism is the same, but people who are autistic often want to understand. Like there's, there's, there's a, they they strive for understanding and if they find out that they're doing something that's hurts somebody, they're like, oh God, no, I don't most, you know, most of the time they're like, okay, I guess I won't do that. Let's find a new social script. You know?

Lucas:

Yeah. Well, and it, remember for a personality disorder, it has to be pervasive. So somebody with autism, I've never met anybody with autism who has no empathy. Um and they, they they do. And so if it's not pervasive and in every context, that's 'cause that's what a narcissist is gonna be. They don't have it. Period. And so just because they struggle with it to understand in certain aspect does not mean that you're a narcissist. They believe they're really special. And it's more than just like, my mom said I'm special. Like, they <laugh> they, they believe that they could only be understood by people who have a ton of success or power or brilliance. Like they're on a whole different level.

Christy:

Yeah. Like if you, if you have ever been in a, and I and I have been in a conversation with people, I've not always picked the best relationships in my life, but <laugh>, the ones that are say, you just, there's no way that you could possibly understand me. Like, you just, you, you just don't get it. I mean, I could talk to you forever and you're just never gonna understand. Like I'm, this might blow some people's minds, but I'm a relatively understanding person. <Laugh>

Lucas:

Most of the time.

Christy:

Most of the time. Most of the time. And so it's just kinda like, okay, bro. Yeah. You are so special that I could never understand you.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

Okay.

Lucas:

Right. They'll often these people will, when they, when they go into a store or they go and they're seeking out services, they need the best Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, they, they will only talk to the top person. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> whether it be the, the CEO or like your best therapist or your best doctor, Uhhuh <affirmative> they're not gonna take a, like a nurse practitioner. They want, they want the head of the department to see them because they are special.

Christy:

It is the ask the manager. Karen's <laugh>. Or I know the manager, they'll come in and be like, I deserve special treatment because I know the manager. And they're like, okay. I'm gonna treat you well. Like everybody else is treated, but why do you need special treatment? You know, like that is, you see that often in like restaurants Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> where they'll come in and be like, do you know who I am?

Lucas:

Oh yeah. That's classic.

Christy:

No <laugh>. I don't.

Lucas:

Right. And you say no, and then they're offended and then they will proceed to tell you for 15 minutes who they are and why you should know them.

Christy:

And who and who they know and who they associate with. Because that makes them special.

Lucas:

Yes.

Christy:

Now, there are days when you can be special, right? Like your birthday. Absolutely. Like your birthday is a special day. So like if on your birthday you think that everything should maybe kind of be about you, that does not make you a narcissist. Or your wedding day. You know, but if you think everybody should treat you the same on your wedding day as they do every other day of your life, there might be something there. You might be a narcissist.

Lucas:

There might be something there. I dunno.

Christy:

Huh?

Lucas:

Narcissists, we've, we've kind of already covered this, but they require excessive admiration. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And they have a very fragile self-esteem. Uh there's the term fragile narcissist. That's where this comes from.

Christy:

Yeah I think, I think part of narcissism is that the vulnerable part has to be there. Like there's the grandiose part, and then there's also this vulnerability part that people don't always understand because yes, there's all this admiration and blah, blah, blah, but sometimes that can be reversed where they're looking for excessive sympathy. Because they, because it's this vulnerable part where it's like, nobody wants to be around me. Why doesn't anybody wanna hang out with me? Oh, you're gonna go do that. Well, I guess I'll just hang out here by myself, which is manipulative in and of itself, but they're, what they're looking for is, of course, I wanna be with you. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. Yes. I want whatever. But they really do have a low self-esteem. And if they, if they keep their head high enough in the clouds, they don't have to acknowledge it.

Lucas:

Yes, exactly. They might also have a sense of entitlement. This could, in, this could include like, unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment, favorable treatment, or automatic compliance with their expectations. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So when they tell you to jump, you ask how high. They are. They would expect to be catered to. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And going back to the restaurant example. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> if your waiter or waitress is not at their beck and call immediately Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, there's gonna be a big problem.

Christy:

Right. And there's a difference between being impatient and being a narcissist. <laugh>. Because you can be impatient in a restaurant and that doesn't make you a narcissist. 'Cause like you said, I think everybody <laugh>, we could listen to this and be like, well, I get really impatient in a restaurant sometimes, but that doesn't make you a narcissist.

Lucas:

Right. Yep. There's a, oh my gosh, I, we were just talking about this. The

Christy:

You and me.

Lucas:

Well, you and Doug mostly were talking about this while I was getting coffee. <Laugh>. What?

Christy:

'Cause He can't function without it, but it's neither here nor there.

Lucas:

That's a different podcast. Um

Christy:

ADHD, we already did that one.

Lucas:

Yeah. Hmm. <Laugh>. The, it's a term for when you are, you're brilliant.

Christy:

Egocentric?

Lucas:

Egocentrism. Thank you. Yes Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. They take it to the extreme. And egocentrism is where you little kids have this, especially.

Christy:

It's all about me.

Lucas:

Yep. It's all about me. What I'm thinking. You already know. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So like an example of this would be like, when a little kid sees a toy that another child is playing with, I want that toy. This kid knows that I want that toy and is totally okay with me taking it. They take it and they're like, oh, why are you blowing up? Narcissists take this to the extreme and they think everybody agrees with their perspective. And when they're surprised. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. 'cause They're always shocked when somebody doesn't. It becomes a big issue.

Christy:

Right, but that's why we also, we teach children empathy. So like, if you are, if you're a decent parent, right. And your kid takes a toy away from somebody else, and it causes that child to be distressed, most parents are gonna be like, Hey, bud, you just took a toy from your friend. You have to go say your, you know, a role model apology and blah, blah, blah, blah. You do that whole thing and it's teaching empathy. Like, how does that feel? How would you feel if somebody did that to you? And they're like, oh yeah, okay. You teach that. But when you start to bloom a narcissist at an early age, and you're a parent, that just allows that behavior because your little Charlie is the most special little angel on the planet, and you don't really care who he hurts. You might, you might raise a narcissist.

Lucas:

Yeah we're gonna talk about that too. How people become narcissists.

Christy:

Me jumping ahead.

Lucas:

I know it's weird. <Laugh> <laugh>. But another thing that they struggle with or do is they are interpersonally ex exploitative. So they, they manipulate people. They take advantage of others. This is the hallmark of what they do.

Christy:

Because they have to. Because if they don't manipulate you, then, then they're no longer in control. And Wow. A narcissist who's not in control. That's kind of, that they will do, they'll, they will go to great lengths to be in control of a situation. And so the manipulation can come sometimes in like little jabs that sometimes you don't even realize are, are happening. Like, oh, why isn't dinner on the table?

Lucas:

Right.

Christy:

You know, just like.

Lucas:

Little microaggressions. Here and there. They, you know, like with just the everything, there's, it's on a spectrum, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And like the really, I, I hate that I'm gonna say this because it makes it sound like a positive thing, but the, like, advanced, like narcissism or like, or really high functioning Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> narcissist.

Christy:

We'll call it severe, severe everything, everything's on a spectrum.

Lucas:

Yeah we'll say.

Christy:

In mental health.

Lucas:

Um they're really good at this. And to the point where it, they make it seem like it's your idea. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And you don't even know what's happening. And then all of a sudden you're, you like, leave the situation, you're like, wait, what? What did I agree to? And you're maybe confused and we'll talk about gaslighting later, but. A lot of times these people will form relationships with people only to advance their own self-interests. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then once you have given them what they need, you're ghosted or dumped to the curb.

Christy:

Right. I think it's also, IM important 'cause we we're talking about it more in a relationship sense, but employers also can often fall under some of these things too. And so just as you're, as you're listening, think about your workplace and the culture in your workplace and who you're working for. Esp esp, I I feel like this is probably more prominent than like, business..

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

...Situations, Just because there's this desire to have and develop and have everything and be rich and everything looked good. But take, listen to what we're saying. And maybe it's not, it's not just in relationships. Like you can be in a narcissistic relationship with an employer or a parent or a friend.

Lucas:

Yeah. And in a, in a job setting that could look like somebody who uses you as a stepping stone to get what they need. Maybe they're, they'll put you in a situation that they're in with you, and then they'll throw you under the bus to make themselves look good. Or they'll put all of the blame on you that something didn't work out Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> or that something maybe hasn't been working out. They'll find a way to make it so that it looks like you, so then they can advance.

Christy:

And in order for them to always be the best, they have to make sure that you know that you're not good enough. And so if every time you do a project or something and they're like, well, I mean good for you, but it's not really all that great. And if you are in, just think about how, if you're in a relationship or an employer like that and everything you do is just never enough. The impact that that has on your mental health is wild.

Lucas:

Yeah. Absolutely. There's potentially a lot of comparison that would, would go on. Like if with an employer trying to like put two employees against one another to make them Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> feel like they're in like air quotes their place. Yeah. <laugh>. And it's, you, you can never be above a narcissist. So their goal is always to make sure that you are, you know, where you stand Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> according to them. And if you push past that, there's gonna be major issues.

Christy:

Right. And it's, and it's, it's interesting 'cause they also don't want anybody else to have the admiration either. So like, if, if you're their partner and you do something great, it is really hard for them to acknowledge that you're doing something great because it can't be as good as whatever they're doing.

Lucas:

Yep. Or your boss might take credit for what you did. Or if you are getting the admiration, they're always gonna tie it back to how they helped you get that.

Christy:

Yeah. The only reason you got that was because I did this.

Lucas:

Right. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So it always comes back to how great they are. Yeah. We've already talked about lacking empathy. But another thing is that they're often envious of others or believe that others are envious of them. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So like, everybody's jealous.

Christy:

Yep, look at me. I've got all this stuff. Everybody, everybody must be looking at these things. And they will go and they will tell you, oh, I, I can tell that you really like my jewelry. Oh, I can tell that. Do, do, look at my, look at my, my watch. You know how much it costs <laugh>. And they, nobody asked you. But they'll just volunteer all of these details about what they are assuming you, you must want to know.

Lucas:

Right. It can seem like humble bragging. Like an example could be like, wow, I moved into, I didn't realize I moved into such a rich neighborhood. There was like a Lamborghini across the right across the street. Like that's, did you have to tell me that? Like what, what was that detail necessary for? So it they just, they do these like subtle jabs and these subtle moves to try and make sure that there's a, a status Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> difference between you.

Christy:

Because you have to know how special they are.

Lucas:

Absolutely. And then ultimately they're attitude. They're they very arrogant and haughty behaviors. So they might be like snobby or patronizing to you. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> talking down to you.

Christy:

Condescending.

Lucas:

Yeah. Very condescending. So, and you have to have five of those in order to be a narcissist and they have to be everywhere. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So it's not just every now and again, you're maybe you have been called out for being patronizing one time. Like you're not a you're not a narcissist.

Christy :

No. No. And you can't just be a narcissist at home. Like it's, it literally is just who you are. And, and you, and you carry who you are with you everywhere you go.

Lucas:

So how do people become narcissists?

Christy:

Interestingly enough, I believe that this is one of the ones that is like personality disorders in general are not, there's not a gene for that. It's more environment in how you're raised and who you're around.

Lucas:

Yeah. huge environmental. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> impact. They're doing some research. There's some evidence for like a neurobiological component, but it's not very strong. And, but they're, they're continuously doing research on personality disorders. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> how personality disorders form in general, just all personality disorders is we're not certain. And each case is very different.

Christy:

We have no idea.

Lucas:

So they, we just know that they do. But yeah, narcissism comes from like over like parents being overindulging of their children or even being overprotective or excessive praise and criticism. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>

Christy:

I think of is her name Violet Bogar on Willy Wonka the chocolate factory?

Lucas:

Yes. I mean, I know who you're talking about.

Christy:

And she's that whi that whiny girl that turns into a grape or something. And she just always got her way and eventually she fell into the something. And I don't know, but she is like, perfect example of that. Like that would breed narcissism. When you are like, my kid is special, they wanna get into the front of the line. Or if, if you, if you had a narcissist as a parent, and that you learn by watching. Right? So like if your, if your parents were people that go out and did that, it's, that's how you learn how to behave. And, and those are your morals and your whatever.

Lucas:

Yeah. If your parent is a narcissist, you're more likely to become a narcissist just because that's how you were life was modeled to you. And then even if your parents aren't narcissists, but they're treating you with, they're just telling you how amazing you are, how beautiful you are all the time. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Or like, you're the best. And like,

Christy:

And you can never make a mistake. And they, they'll blame the other kids for why you feel a certain way, even though like there's just zero accountability.

Lucas:

Yep. And then also of course, trauma, abuse, neglect. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, those sorts of things can also cause a narcissistic personality disorder to form as well. Yeah.

Christy:

So, because we want you to say nice things to your children. I mean, that's, that's important. But like <laugh>. But there's also a level of accountability. Like my parents, my parents really loved me. I know it's shocking, but they did. But when, when I did something, when I did something wrong, like I had to take accountability for that. And, and they taught me empathy. Like they gave, they put me in situations where I had to see how other people were feeling and see how other people lived even. And, and be thankful for what I had. And you know, just developing that sort of empathetic response. And kids, you, you can have both. You can, you can maintain accountability and say really nice things to your kids, but there's gotta be a balance.

Lucas:

Right. Or even, we talked about this in the sports podcast too, but teaching kids how to lose. Kids who are always given the ability to win and are never taught that they're not the best at everything they do every single time. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> they might struggle with some of these things. And they're, I mean, eventually they're gonna get a rude awakening. <Laugh>, but that's also, but it

Christy:

Won't be their fault. <Laugh>.

Lucas:

Yeah. Yeah. And like Christy had said, going off of the, it's not their fault, like showing them cause and effect that their actions do have consequences. This is all this very, very, very helpful Mm-Hmm. To trying to prevent this from occurring. There's also, there's a lot of I, I typed in types of narcissists, prepping for this. <Laugh>. And there is a million different articles out there with all kinds of numbers of like seven types of narcissists, 10 types of narcissists, three types of narcissists. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, four types of narcissists. That, that's just how like little understanding I think we have when it comes to Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> what a narcissist can actually look like or how they can present Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And so I'm just gonna focus on two really big ones that I think cover a broad spectrum. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> of all the different kinds, air quotes of narcissists. But,

Christy:

You know, I think that there's probably, if you've been a victim of somebody who is a narcissist I think there really is a desire for understanding. And like a desire for validation in how you're feeling. So I think a lot of people who have been victims of narcissists probably do a deep dive and try to like build awareness for other people. 'cause When you're in it, it's so hard to see. It's so hard to see. But when you're out of it, you can be objective. And so it's like, if we make all of these different types, maybe somebody will see that, maybe they'll relate to it and be like, okay, you can get out of it 'cause it is, it can be highly traumatizing to be in a, in a relationship with a narcissistic person at work or at home.

Lucas:

Because the number one thing, the victims that I've found are looking for when they're a victim of narcissism is validation. And we're about to get, we're gonna get to that in a little bit here, but.

Christy:

We're about to get.

Lucas:

So the two types these are super broad categories, but overt narcissism versus covert narcissism. Um and so overt is like the classic what everybody thinks of Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> when it comes to a narcissist, they're kind of like in your face narcissism. They're extroverted, maybe bold or like super attention seeking. This is like the classic what you think of Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um and then the overt narcissist, these, or sorry, covert. Covert, sorry. Are much more subtle. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. These, they fly under the radar. They might even be seen as like shy, withdrawn, self-deprecating. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> is a really big thing that they do. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And they're often very passive aggressive, super sensitive to criticism, easily stressed out. And then they, the hallmark of a covert narcissist is that they play the victim and they deflect blame. And all of that is in order to maintain control of their victim.

Christy:

Yep. Because if you feel bad for them, they're still in control.

Lucas:

Yep. So there's a bunch of different, like when I was reading everything kind of like branched out of these two main categories. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But feel free to do your own deep dive and see all the different kinds of narcissists you think there are. But those are the two main categories. I think overt is much more easy to see from like an outside perspective, but even like from an out outside perspective, covert narcissism is really hidden.

Christy:

Yeah. And I, it's, it's in little things like, like I said this before, like, why does anybody wanna hang out with me? Or like, if they're, if they're mad at you, they'll give you the silent treatment. Or those are all ways to covert ways to get control over you. So you are cow tailing to what they want. Right. Because if you think that they're mad at you, you'd be like, oh my gosh, what do I need to do to make you happy? What do I need to do to, to make things better? And, and you are the problem. And, and it makes you feel all the time, like, you cannot keep this person happy 'cause it's, they literally almost brainwash you to believe that it is your job on this earth to make them happy.

Lucas:

Yeah. Covert narcissists can look like somebody who's even altruistic. So they can be somebody who's like giving a bunch of money or like donating their time. And what they're doing is they post about it a lot on social media or talk about it all the time. And so they're not, the difference here is that true altruism Right. Is you're doing it selflessly. And whereas they are doing it because they do it, they post about it or talk about it, and they're waiting for all of the praise.

Christy:

Right. They wanna get recognized.

Lucas:

Yes. And so these are people that they, they can't really stop talking about how amazing, this amazing volunteering that they're doing Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> or all this great work that they've been doing. Because they just, they need the, the validation and the praise for it.

Christy:

Right. And they're not doing it for the right reasons. They're doing it because look at how great I am. Look how kind I am. Look how selfless in giving I am. But you're posting about it. So like, people who really give to charity or do charitable things aren't taking out billboards and saying, look at this great thing I did.

Lucas:

Yeah, I think of all of those, there's a lot of videos on the internet of people doing like, just super nice things for people, like giving them money or like.

Christy:

Mr. Beast?

Lucas:

That's a great example. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> of that. And I'm not saying that these people are narcissists, but that would be an example of what this version of a narcissist would do. And, it's all about they will, they'll act like it's not a big deal and like whatever, but they are just loving all of the praise 'cause that's what they're going for.

Christy:

Well, and people like that, like on TikTok Right. They're making money off of doing those videos. So like how selfless is it?

Lucas:

Well, that's a great question.

Christy:

Because, because it does feel even watching it, I follow Mr. Beast because I watch it and it's like, oh, that's like warm and fuzzy. Like, we raised all of this money for this person who needed an apartment who was on the streets. Like, It's heartwarming to watch. It's a feelgood sort of, sort of click, but then when you really start digging down to it, it's like they're making money.

Lucas:

Yeah, like.

Christy:

Off of, off of the 1.7 million people who have liked this video.

Lucas:

Right. Like, why do you gotta film it? Right. Just do it 'cause you're nice. That's what a true altruist would do. So just something to think about.

Christy:

<Laugh>, you know, just throwing it out there.

Lucas:

Yeah. So we've mentioned multiple times now that narcissism, like, just because they might have some of these characteristics every now and again, that doesn't mean that they're a narcissist. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So what's the difference between how do I know like my partner's a narcissist versus just being toxic?

Christy:

Yeah, that's, it's a really good question because we all kind of have toxic traits. <Laugh>

Lucas:

That's true.

Christy:

And it, and it has to do with, with how you were raised in trauma and ex in past relationships or past employment experiences that you've had. And it's one thing if I have a toxic trait and I can recognize it and I can work on it, and I can see that it's there. Narcissistic people can't do that. They can't, they can't even acknowledge that there's a toxic trick that exists. It's just who they are.

Lucas:

Right. I think that although there are some, like trauma is attached to narcissism. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. I think that a lot of times our toxic behaviors do come, like it's a trauma trigger or totally some sort of emotional, emotional damage, <laugh>

Christy:

Emotional damage.

Lucas:

That happened to us in the past. I am so sorry.

Christy:

Thanks for the earworm.

Lucas:

Yeah. And whereas narcissism is just deeply rooted into who they are. As a, as a human being.

Christy:

Right. Do you have a toxic trait? Are we, are we self-disclosing today?

Lucas:

Oh, no. I, I don't. Oh man. <Laugh>.

Christy:

Because you are not a narcissist. I, I promise you.

Lucas:

Well, thank you. I have asked that question, am I a narcissist before? Which again is a sign that you're not. So probably a sign that you're anxious, but I'm also not anxious, so. I would, I'm stalling <laugh> <laugh>. The I don't know. I think that sometimes I can be passive aggressive towards people that I'm, I'm upset with. And rather than just talking to them about the issue. I try to go about it in a way that is Yeah. That's just passive aggressive. That's not straight to the point. <laugh>. And then I get upset when they didn't get it. <Laugh>,

Christy:

<Laugh> unspoken expectations are just wishes. Lucas.

Lucas:

Yes. How about you? Now you have to go.

Christy:

Oh he, you know, I probably, every now and then, like if I get into an argument with Scott, I'll be like, you're right. It's all my fault. You're right.

Lucas:

Oh, yeah.

Christy:

It's all my fault.

Lucas:

<Laugh>. Yeah.

Christy:

And that is not great, but it is what I do. And probably it's because sometimes I really do know that sometimes it is my fault. But like, I don't take criticism well, <laugh> shocker. I'm very, very sensitive to criticism, which probably is deep seated somewhere. But when someone becomes critical of me, instead of just sometimes accepting the fact that I'm not doing something right, I'll be like, flip it <laugh>. I'll be like, no, you're doing something wrong. And then once I calm down though, I'd be like, okay, you're right. But it's just like that, that initial like blast of criticism, just, I immediately get defensive.

Christy:

And I, it, it it's not cute.

Lucas:

Right. And if so, those are things that like a narcissist would do.

Christy:

100%.

Lucas:

But.

Christy:

I recognize that's as a problem.

Lucas:

You cognize it and then you apologize for it.

Christy:

I do. And I. Yeah. And I, and I have gotten much better at not doing it. Because it's not fair to my partner and I care about his feelings, oddly enough.

Lucas:

Because you have empathy.

Christy:

Because I have empathy, but that doesn't take away that. So, I mean, yes, that's a toxic trait, but I'm not, I'm not a narcissist.

Lucas:

Narcissist behaviors are toxic. Not all toxic people are narcissists.

Christy:

There you go. Look at you.

Lucas:

I try.

Christy:

That was beautiful. <Laugh>.

Lucas:

Thank you.

Christy:

Let's, let's put it on a shirt. <Laugh>. <laugh>.

Lucas:

So let's talk about some of the, like, we've talked about the diagnostic criteria and stuff, but like on a practical basis, not clinical basis. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Like what are some of the things that they, they do? Let's talk about gaslighting.

Christy:

Let's!

Lucas:

Because that is a, that is a big word that gets thrown around nowadays. I think a lot of times incorrectly.

Christy:

Yeah. So, so what's, let's talk about gaslighting means.

Lucas:

Yeah. So gaslighting is a, a tactic where it's the type of emotional abuse that involves manipulating someone into questioning their own reality. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> their thoughts, their own feelings. It makes them doubt their instincts. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> their own memories convinces them that the gaslight's truth is correct. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, they can do this through like, denying that something was said Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Or that they said something. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> denying that you did something altogether. So whenever I get asked this, I, I think the best way to describe it's by just like an example. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So like, if I were to ask Christy, Hey, can I see that piece of paper? And she were to hand it to me, and it would be like, why'd you hand this to me? Why? What are you doing?

Christy:

Oh My God. That would make me feel crazy.

Lucas:

Right. That's what, that's what gaslighting does. <Laugh>. and now that's a really silly example because obviously I literally just asked for that. But it can be that quick. And they're really good at it. So another form of gaslighting can be like, where you're in an argument with someone, and let's say that at a certain point, like you, you held your ground, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And you are sticking to your guns with the argument and because they're in the wrong maybe Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> or something like that. And then they, the narcissist realize they're not gonna win. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so what they do then is say, I was joking.

Christy:

Yeah.

Lucas:

I was just messing with you. Like this was all just a joke.

Christy:

Yeah. Why did you get so worked up about it?

Lucas:

Right. Why are you so upset about this? It was just a joke. I was just messing with you when they were like arguing with you about it for three hours.

Christy:

Right.

Lucas:

So that's a form of gaslighting.

Christy:

100%.

Lucas:

And it makes you feel insane and it can make somebody feel enraged.

Christy:

Yeah.

Lucas:

When that occurs.

Christy:

That actually I've heard that particular thing I've heard a lot is with the, I'm just joking. Why are you making a big deal out of it? Oh my gosh.

Lucas:

Gaslighting is also attached to what's called reaction abuse. So reaction abuse is where, so if I were to do this to Christy, it would be me just poking and poking and poking and poking, and then finally she explodes on me. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then I just, I get really calm and I'm like, Christy, why are you talking to me like that <laugh>? That's why are you over, you're overreacting. Like, that's really hurtful what you just said to me. Like how, why would you ever do that to me? I thought we were friends. And I start gaslighting you into thinking that you overreacted and it's a way of making her look like she's the bad guy. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And because she has empathy Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, she's gonna be like, oh no, I, I did mess that up. And now I do feel bad for that. Oh my God, I'm so sorry. That I did that to you even though

Christy:

You were terrorizing me.

Lucas:

Even though I was the one that did it.

Christy:

Yeah. They won't see that though. And, and I think that's, that is, that's maybe the hardest thing is that it's not purposeful, like what they're doing, it's not like they're thinking it out. It's literally who they are. As people <laugh>. And so it, and that, and that can be really frustrating too. Because it's like, you must know what you're doing and they're just like, no, I don't.

Lucas:

Yeah. And I think like it's purposeful in that they're trying to, they're trying to defend themselves. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like they are, like, they're trying to protect themselves and their ego Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and keep you in your air quote place. Right. But it is just so automatic that it's not like they went into this with this giant scheme. That they knew exactly how you were gonna respond and exactly how they were gonna respond. They just, they're doing it.

Christy:

Yeah. And I think we've, we've talked about it mainly I feel like in men. And I think it is more, it's, it's far more prevalent in men, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist for females. They are out there.

Lucas:

They are out there.

Christy:

Trust and believe.

Lucas:

Yeah. And females tend to be more covert. Um and so it's possible that our numbers are much more, are just much lower. Because they were just more hidden. However, 'cause my wife asked me this yest, last night. It was a really good question.

Christy:

Thanks Rachel.

Lucas:

Yeah. <laugh>. She's great.

Christy:

She is great.

Lucas:

Uh and she said, I'm gonna butcher it now. Sorry. But is it that, are men truly more narcissistic than women typically? Mm-Hmm. Or is it just that we haven't studied women enough? Oh, that could be. Which is a great question.

Christy:

It is a great question.

Lucas:

Um and my response to that is I think that men are like, tend to be more, have more narcissistic traits. And that's because societally women are more criticized. Right. There is a air courts place Mm-Hmm. That women are typically put in, whereas men are allowed power and are encouraged to like pursue those things. And so I think just even on a societal level, it's much less likely for a woman to become a narcissist because of all the pressures that are put in place. Mm-Hmm.

Christy:

I've got nothing to back this up. So I'm just throwing that out there 'cause it just came to my mind. But narcissism falls in what they call a cluster B trait or cluster B personality disorders. And also under cluster B is borderline personality disorder. And I wonder almost if more females, because they say borderline is more common in females than males. And narcissism is more common in males and females. I wonder if there are maybe some females that end up getting labeled as borderline personality disorder. 'cause There are some similarities...

Lucas:

There are.

Christy:

...Between The two mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> instead of narcissistic just because they're women.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

You know what I mean?

Lucas:

Yeah. That's, I wonder there's gotta be a research study out there.

Christy:

I know.

Lucas:

That now I'm gonna find it.

Christy:

I know. I don't know why that came to my brain, but it did.

Lucas:

Yeah. That's interesting. Narcissists. One thing that we didn't talk about that we really should is that narcissists will, when they're hurt by whatever you're saying or they'll be hurt. Like if, if I'm the narcissist and you were to tell me that I did something that offended you, I'm gonna act really hurt. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And I'm going to end up doing something that makes you apologize. For bringing that up.

Christy (37:54):

Yep, totally.

Lucas:

That's the classic narcissism move.

Christy:

It is. It is. And I think about that in the context of like married couples, right. Where like maybe the dude goes out and he does something that's really stupid, like that either puts him in a bad position or, or damages the trust between him and his wife. Right. And they come home and the wife is understandably and reasonably upset at whatever this guy did. And somehow he says, well, you weren't really meeting my needs, so I had to go out and blow off steam or do whatever because, because you are spending all of your time with other people or whatever the case may be. And it's like, and then it's like, oh, you're right. I'm sorry I haven't been such a good wife, wife, so I understand why you went out and did that really bad thing. Nooo <laugh>. That is not, that's not it people.

Lucas:

Right. Because their, their bad choices and their actions are always your fault. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you caused me to do this. Um if we want to go a different route with that, like you were just stressing me out and that's why I hit you. And if you hadn't done that, then I wouldn't have hit you. We've talked about this. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Right.

Christy:

Uhhuh. <Affirmative> or, or take or taken things away. I mean, I think you, I'm assuming that you're gonna get to the power and control wheel because that's just who you are.

Lucas:

I actually have that up right now.

Christy:

Oh my gosh. 'cause That's just who you are as a person. I was gonna say, because nobody loves the power and control wheel like Lucas Mitzel.

Lucas:

Um, I don't know what that means, but

Christy:

<Laugh>, you just, you've, I you use the power and control wheel a lot. I feel like...

Lucas:

I do.

Christy:

...In Your sessions.

Lucas:

I do.

Christy:

Because it's, I think it's validating and it's, it goes through all of the ways that people can use things against you that you maybe don't even think of. And then when, when you start looking at it with clients, they'll be like, oh my gosh. Yeah, they do do that. Oh my gosh. They do that too. Do you wanna talk about the power wheel?

Lucas:

I would love to.

Christy:

Oh my God. Let's do it.

Lucas:

Okay <laugh>.

Christy:

Okay. Okay.

Lucas:

We've talked a bit about some of these things, but, so there's, there's eight different spokes of the wheel.

Christy:

I do believe this was developed by like abused women actually.

Lucas:

From Duluth.

Christy:

From Duluth, Minnesota. Yeah. What, what.

Lucas:

Which is super cool. And there's, so there's eight main tactics and we've talked about a couple of 'em already, but I'll just just go in the circle. So using intimidation. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> is the first one. So making people afraid by using looks, actions, gestures, smashing things, destroying property, abusing pets, displaying weapons. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> are all intimidation tactics to, and by the way, this is all about maintaining power. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and meaning maintaining control of their victims.

Christy:

Yeah. And the gun doesn't have to be pointed to your head, the gun can be on a table. Yeah. You know, just, just a reminder.

Lucas:

Coming home and they're just cleaning the gun. After an argument. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> like that is a message. Anytime that you are feeling like you are being that you are scared. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like it's working. This, this tactic. And that's what they're doing. They'll gaslight you and say that that's not what they're doing. They're just cleaning the gun.

Christy:

Right. And ps if you are in a relationship where you are constantly feeling scared, it is not a healthy relationship.

Lucas:

Say it louder for the people in the back. <Laugh>. Yes.

Christy:

If you are <laugh>, it is you relationships shouldn't feel scary.

Lucas:

Absolutely. You shouldn't be stressed going home. That should be your happy place. Using emotional abuse. We already talked about this a little bit with the gaslighting 'cause that's a really big piece of that. But putting them down, making them feel bad about themselves. Calling them names, making them think that they're crazy. Gaslighting. Mind games. Humiliating people making them feel guilty. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>

Christy:

Humiliating people. I think this is often one that people don't think of often, but it's like you're out with your, your significant other and they say something about you that you did that was really something that probably should have stayed at home and just like putting it on blast in front of everybody. So you feel so stupid. And it's so hard to get people sometimes to accept that emotional abuse is abuse because they're not being hit. And so they see like all of those little things that people do, they don't see it as emotionally abusive. And it is.

Lucas:

Yes. Emotional abuse goes hidden very easily. And it's really hard to prove Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> because you feel like you're crazy and you're just overreacting. There's no bruises. 'cause You've been emotionally abused.

Christy:

Yep. Exactly.

Lucas:

It's a spiral. Using isolation. So this would be controlling what you do, where you go

Christy:

Who you're with.

Lucas:

What you read.

Christy:

What you watch.

Lucas:

Which family you can contact. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> how often you can see them. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> just trying to keep you to themselves. Because if you're around them, they can control you. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. If they're, if you're around your friends, they might, they might say something that gets you thinking for yourself.

Christy:

Right. And if, if you're giving attention to all those other people, then you're not giving it to them and they don't like that.

Lucas:

Yeah. 'cause they need it. Minimizing, denying and blaming making. So making light of any of the abuse that they've given you. Not taking your concerns seriously, saying that it just didn't happen. So more gaslighting. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> shifting responsibility and then saying that you caused it, which Christy was talking about earlier. Mm-Hmm.

Christy:

<Affirmative>. I didn't hit you that hard.

Lucas:

Right. You didn't even have a mark.

Christy:

Yeah. And, and you were, and you were talking back to me. So you kind of deserve that, didn't you?

Lucas:

Right. You know how I am when I drink.

Christy:

Yeah. You should expect that. <Laugh> Instead of, hey, I'm sorry I drank too much and I I hurt you. That is terrible. I'm sorry.

Lucas:

Yeah. Using any sort of violence in a relationship is bad. Please get out. That is not healthy. At all. That should never, ever happen.

Christy:

Nope. Ever.

Lucas:

Using children.

Christy:

Oh, that's a good one. Do you know how many times I have been in a session and people are like, well, if, if I, if I do anything, he's, he said he would take the kids away from me. And I was like, do you know how hard it is to get your kids taken away from you? That's not gonna happen. So are, are you, are you beating your, are you beating your children? Well, no. Are you dealing drugs out of your house? Well, no. Okay. What reason does anybody have to take your children away? Like that is it's false.

Lucas:

Yeah, absolutely. Or even just simply using them to make you feel guilty. Um like, you're not doing X, Y, and Z and so you're causing this in our child. You're making them stressed out. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> or like saying that they like you more than them. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> or whatever. Or like them more than you. However, all of these are ways of using kids. Try and control your behavior. Control you and how you feel.

Christy:

Or one, been like you've, you've even, you've even made the kids not wanna hang out with me anymore because of what you've done. The kids don't even wanna, the kids don't even wanna see me anymore. It's like, well, or is it because of what you've done? Right.

Lucas:

Right. It was 'cause you're kind of mean. <Laugh>. Yeah.

Christy:

Right. And there's no reciprocity in the relationship and you don't care about what they say or how they feel.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

You know?

Lucas:

'Cause They're not just a narcissist to you. They're a narcissists to the kids too.

Christy:

Right? Oh, yeah.

Lucas:

Using male privilege. So the power and control wheel I should have said this earlier, is the language is typically her. And that's because the vast majority of abuse victims are women. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so it's, it's framed that way. That does not mean that men cannot be abused.

Christy:

Correct. It happens all the time.

Lucas:

And all a lot, all of these things can be towards men. So, male privilege though is very important. And this is where a man might be treating her like a servant or making all the big decisions or acting like the quote is master of the castle. Being the one to define the roles. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. All of these are control tactics.

Christy:

Money,

Lucas:

Money.

Christy:

Giving her an allowance.

Lucas:

Huge. Yes.

Christy:

Or, or not allowing her to understand the finances and where the money's going.

Lucas:

Right.

Christy:

Because if if she doesn't know how to live life, then she's not going anywhere.

Lucas:

Exactly. Yep. If you limit their ability to have resources, then they can't

Christy:

Get out. Can't leave. Yep.

Lucas:

So which falls into the next one, economic abuse. Oh,

Christy:

There you go.

Lucas:

So preventing them from getting a job. So making them stay at home and take care of the kids. Now keeping in mind that, that's just because you, if you choose that lifestyle, like if that is something you guys to do, go. You go for it. That's awesome. Yep. Love that. It is not a power and control thing. No. But if you're like, I want to pursue my career, I want to do this, and your spouse is like, absolutely not, you are not allowed to leave the house

Christy:

And you're not smart enough to do that job anyway.

Lucas:

Yeah. Because you need to take care of the family and you need to make sure that dinner's ready when I get home. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And you need to make sure that I am taken care of. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, that's toxic. Yeah. That's, that's not Okay.

Christy:

No. And

Lucas:

Then giving her allowance. Yeah. Taking away money. Not letting, like not letting access to any bank accounts. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, those sorts of things. Yeah. And then lastly, using coercion and threats. So this is where you are actually like threatening to do something that could be anywhere from like, threatening to hurt the person or maybe threatening to hurt yourself. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, that's another big tactic. It is. Making her drop charges or else Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> or like making her do a illegal thing. So then now you are

Christy:

Complicit

Lucas:

Com. Thank you. Yeah. Yes. Complicit. I got you. These are all really big things that somebody might do.

Christy:

Yeah. Like the, the, the whole if you leave, I'm gonna kill myself. That's very common. Or do you wanna be responsible for me, for me wanting to die? Right.

Lucas:

And then do you wanna explain that to our kids that you're the reason I died, right?

Christy:

Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. <Laugh>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> but people use it. And so I mean, if, if that's, if that is, if you are experiencing any of those things in your relationship, please go see somebody. Please.

Lucas:

Yes.

Christy:

Whether it's, whether it's a, it's a support group or you find a therapist or something, but if any of those things are, are present in your relationship, it's not a healthy relationship. Yes.

Lucas:

Okay. Lightning round.

Christy:

Yay. Okay,

Lucas:

<Laugh>. So bring it. We gotta go bring it on because we don't get, we've running outta time here. So what are the thi some things that we can do when we're dealing with a narcissist or living with one

Christy:

Setting very healthy boundaries, I think is the biggest one that you have to be like, I am not doing this. I am not. And I, I, you need to step into your own power and be like, I am not, you have to find your confidence. Right. We do a lot of self-esteem building, a lot of confidence building a lot of challenging of cognitive distortions. But I will say that it is nearly impossible to be in a healthy relationship with a narcissistic person.

Lucas:

Absolutely. They won't allow it.

Christy:

No. So, no. And so if you're, if you're just, you're just learning how to live in it, that's not healthy. <Laugh>. Right. I mean, there are ways that you can, you can minimize the amount of damage that they're doing to you if you feel like you're stuck in that situation for whatever reason. But it's not gonna be a healthy relationship.

Lucas:

There's this, there's a term called gray rocking, and this is where you try not to react to them, like emotionally. 'cause They're gonna really, really try to get you to react through gaslighting or just blaming you for stuff, and that's what they want. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, because part of that reaction abuse, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So really trying to control your emotions and not let them change the subject. Stay really focused on what you are needing to talk about. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And don't let them take control of the conversation. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But ultimately just really trying to not react to them.

Christy:

Right. Which is another reason why you should have a therapist, because you, you need to put those emotions somewhere. Yeah. You need to talk about them somewhere. So us, even as a support person, someone who understands what's going on, but it is important to not react. But I also don't want you to not validate your feelings

Lucas:

Exactly. If you, I sometimes we don't have a choice. Totally. And like if we, if we're like a child living with a narcissistic parent Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> we have to live with them. Yep. And so a tactic to help limit the amount of distress could be avoiding direct confrontation if possible. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So if you have to confront them on something, frame any criticism in the shape of a compliment Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. or like the compliment sandwich. Yeah. And just, you have to be really gentle. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> with narcissists because they can't handle it. Right.

Christy:

And they're gonna, and they're gonna pop off. And if they feel like they're losing control or that you're getting it, or that you're starting to maybe catch on to what they're doing, it can, it can honestly be a dangerous situation.

Lucas:

Yep. Focusing on action rather than the promises. You're gonna get a ton of empty promises from a narcissist. Yep. And so just, okay. Your words don't mean a whole lot, I wanna see you do it. Right. So we've talked about this already, but validate yourself. Yeah. You're not to blame, you're not crazy. No.

Christy:

If you, if you're not the problem. Right.

Lucas:

If you, by the way, a good sign that you're being gaslit is if you feel crazy. Yes. So if you're starting to feel crazy when you're having a conversation with somebody, maybe just take a second and validate your experiences. Right.

Christy:

And take a, and go, go talk to an objective person about it. Be like, this is what happened. <Laugh>. Yeah. And if, because I feel like sometimes you need to have the validation so you don't feel crazy.

Lucas:

Yeah. Yeah. If you're working with say an ex and maybe there's like kids involved or something like that. Try to keep those conversations in writing. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So then you can look at 'em later, or you can have somebody review them. I, I've had clients come in and be like, can you look at this? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Like, was I crazy here? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And typically the answer's no. Right. They weren't. But even just having, 'cause it's so hard to remember everything when you have those emotional responses. Well, and

Christy:

It's really easy. It's, it's easier to gaslight somebody when you don't have something that's physical that says it, it happened. Yeah. 'cause Then it's he said, she said,

Lucas:

Exactly. Let's talk resources. Let's, so like Christie said, if you are experiencing any of this, please reach out because there are, there's, there's resources that can help. I'm gonna specifically talk about North Dakota. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, because we're in North Dakota. Right.

Christy:

Wow. Weird.

Lucas:

So first of all, there's the Rape and Abuse Crisis Center. Uhhuh <affirmative>. They're a wonderful group of people. They are love them and they have access to tons of different resources and people that they, you can contact along with therapy services Mm-Hmm. That you can access there too. And they will work around the clock to help keep you safe. Yep. There's also the YWCA, which has an emergency shelter. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> for women and children. If you need to go there and seek help, unfortunately, there, to my knowledge, is not a shelter for men. No. But the other thing, which is a awesome resource is the North ND CAWS. So CAWS, the Council on Abused Women's Services. And are they, I think they're renaming it to Coalition Against Domestic and Sexual Violence in North Dakota. Sweet. So to be more inclusive. Yeah. and there is a ton of amazing resources on this site. Shout out to them. Yeah. like legal services, social services, states, attorneys numbers. Oh my gosh. Victim services more. There's educational material like on different laws in North Dakota, divorce, restraining orders, like, and what all that entails. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like even custody and like custody battles and court and what that all entails. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and like what your rights are and like how to, how to do that. And if you have more questions, who you can contact and all of that. I

Christy:

Also always wanna remind people that there are computers at the library. If you have a partner that is monitoring your phone or watching your phone, or tracing what you're searching or what you're Googling, those kinds of things can go to the library.

Lucas:

Yeah. And a lot of times these webs, well, I think all three of these websites have like an emergency escape button. So, and it's, you just click on it and it brings you to a safe website. Okay. That, that makes it look like you weren't ever on there. And it's like instant. Sweet. So these

Christy:

People think of everything.

Lucas:

I know. It's great. Yeah.

Lucas:

<Laugh>. And now if you can't remember any of that stuff, if you just remember 2 1 1. Yeah. That's first link is it's a call center in town. They're incredible. Or in North Dakota. Yeah. They're awesome. And they have access to all these services. You just tell them what you're looking for and, and they will get you, they'll hook to where you need to go. Yep. So we always want to encourage you to ask the question, is it just me? You're likely not alone. And there is always a way to help. If anything we have talked about today resonates with you, please reach out.

Christy:

Do you have a topic you'd like us to talk about? Message us. We'd love to hear from you. You can shoot us a text, Facebook message, Instagram message. We have our email is, isitjustme@dakotaranch.org? Shout. I don't know.

Lucas:

Just yell really loudly.

Christy:

<Laugh> We'll, we'll hear you. Airplane writing.

Lucas:

Don't forget to share us with your friends and family.

Announcer:

Thanks for listening to today's episode of Is It Just Me? To learn more or make an appointment for psychiatric or mental health services at Dakota Family Services, go to dakotafamilyservices.org or call 1 800 2 0 1 64 95.

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