About the Hosts

Christy Wilkie provides therapy for children and adolescents, ages 5-25, who have complex behavioral health issues. She combines her extensive clinical expertise with a belief in kids and has a unique ability to find and develop their strengths. She works hard to be an ideal therapist for her clients, doing what is best to fit their needs.

Lucas Mitzel provides therapy for children, adolescents, and adults, ages 5 - 30. He believes building relationships with clients is the most important piece of successful therapy. He loves what he does because it allows him to walk next to people he would never have met had he chosen a different profession, as they work to make amazing life changes. He has the honor of meeting people at their worst, all while watching them grow into the people they’ve always wanted to be.

Transcript
Is Parenting Hard?

Featuring Christy Wilkie, LCSW, and Lucas Mitzel, LCSW, Dakota Family Services

Announcer:

This episode of, is It Just Me, is brought to you by Dakota Family Services, your trusted partner in mental and behavioral health, whether you need in-person or virtual care. The team of professionals at Dakota Family Services is dedicated to supporting children, adolescents, and adults in their journey to better mental health.

Christy:

Disrupting life patterns and life routines that aren't serving you.

Lucas:

It's how we feel that keeps us going.

Christy:

You can be a masterpiece and a work of art all at the same time.

Lucas:

Hey everyone, I'm Lucas.

Christy:

And I'm Christy.

Lucas:

You're listening to the, is It Just Me podcast.

Christy:

Where we aimed to provide education, decrease the stigma, and expel some myths around mental health?

Lucas:

Christy, is it just me or is parenting hard?

Christy:

Y Yes. I think that that is one of the, I think the actual surgeon general just declared that parenting is bad for your health.

Lucas:

And it is <laugh>

Christy:

<laugh> because it, because it's that hard and that stressful.

Lucas:

It really is. Um, and there's just a lot of myths around parenting. There's a lot of tradition around parenting, and everybody thinks that they know what's right for everybody's kid. And,

Christy:

And some people think that they don't know what's right ever and that they're doing all the wrong things.

Lucas:

Right. Or like you're constantly getting judged for doing stuff. Or like you're just judging yourself for everything when you don't need to. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera,

Christy:

Et cetera,

Lucas:

Et cetera. <laugh>

Christy:

There is a lot of judgment though, among parents. I do feel like.

Lucas:

There, there definitely is. Um,

Christy:

I think that that's a pretty common thing where people, even if they're not, they feel judged even if it's not in their face judged.

Lucas:

Right. And I think that, I don't know, for, as a parent, um, like if I see somebody having a hard time in a grocery store or something like that, like my only judgment is that I feel bad for you 'cause I've been there. But I do know that there are lots of other parents who judge parents in a negative fashion as well. Um, and we should be the last ones to judge each other.

Christy:

Right. We sh we shouldn't judge parents, period. They're out there doing the best that they can all of the time. Right.

Lucas:

Right. We all are.

Christy:

Most parents, I should say.

Lucas:

We are all typically trying to do the best we can all the time, right. So there's a, there's a lot of different topics or, and avenues that we could go with this topic.

Christy:

So we'll see where we end up. <laugh>.

Lucas:

So yeah. Buckle up guys. <laugh>, uh, first I think, uh, just starting with some of the basics. There's four primary parenting styles. If you will. Um, so there's authoritative, there's permissive, neglectful, and authoritarian. And so we'll just, we'll go down each one and kind of talk about each one. They're broad umbrella terms. And sometimes as you're listening to, like, you're not gonna fit into just one necessarily. Or maybe how you grew up wasn't just one, it was a combination of a couple of different things. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Christy:

And maybe it depends on the subject or the thing that you're parenting.

Lucas:

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So let's start at the top. So what is, what does it mean to be authoritative or an authoritative parent?

Christy:

That it's, it's funny 'cause it sounds like it's a bad word, but it's not <laugh>. Um, I think that is basically kind of what we strive for for parenting, right? Like, you, you bring the kids in, you help, they help make decisions. You're not super strict. You're, you aim to understand what's going on and search for meaning and what the kids are doing. It's kind of balanced parent to me. It's, it's like balanced parenting.

Lucas:

Yeah. It's

Christy:

Natural and logical consequences.

Lucas:

Yes. Yep. That's a huge part of it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, it's, it, you're working that to solve problems together with your child. And you set clear rules, expectations, and boundaries. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like, it's not that they can do whatever they want or anything like that. Like there are very well-defined rules so the kids know what to expect and when they violated those things, there are consequences for those things. However, like you had just mentioned, it's all very natural. It's short-lived. And it's to the point, and there's just open communication between the parents and the children to just continuously keep that open so that we're always trying to solve problems together and just trying to just do it as best as we can together. Is the big thing.

Christy:

We should talk about what natural logical consequences are because it's easy for us to say that. So like, a lot of times, this is a, a very common thing is that parents will take away video games or a phone. And so it's like a kid is getting, they come home late for curfew. And so we take away video games. How does that make sense? Like, the two aren't even connected. So if a kid comes home late from, from curfew, what would be a natural and logical consequence that fits what fits the crime? <laugh>, you know, like maybe they have to get up early and do chores, or maybe they have to, you know, they, their curfew gets cut back an hour the next time they go out or do something. But that's more of a natural consequence. A logical consequence than like, you were late, so I'm taking away your video game.

Lucas:

Right. And, uh, if you're wanted to go purely natural in that sense, like if they came home late, they still have to wake up on time. And so now they're gonna be tired. That's a natural consequence. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. 'cause nobody did anything. It's just the natural way of how the world works.

Christy:

Consequence that you're gonna feel crappy tomorrow.

Lucas:

<laugh>, uh, if, um, a natural consequence that just happened this last week mm-hmm <affirmative>. I had, um, I wanted my child to pick up his toys. He was refusing to do so and then chose to run around the my house. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, and he shocker stepped on some toys and got hurt. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like that's a natural consequence to not picking up your toys. Right. Logical consequence, like Christy had said, it's something that we're doing mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like we are implementing. So now it's no longer natural 'cause we're doing something about it. But if my kid, uh, throws a metal tractor at my head, which has totally never happened before, <laugh> three times.

Christy:

Completely hypothetical situation.

Lucas:

Uh, I'm gonna remove that tractor. Like he threw the tractor, he is misusing it. No more tractor. For a limited amount of time. It's not gone forever. It's not like I threw it in the trash, but like, we're gonna take a break for with it and maybe we'll try after dinner again.

Christy:

Right. I think that is another thing is like the, the time we'll probably see it down a rabbit hole. The time. The time. Limited consequences. 'cause it's like if somebody does something and you take away something for a month, they forget what it's even tied to. Like they don't even know why they don't have their truck anymore. Especially for the little kids. Like they have no idea <laugh>. There's what you're even being punished for. It's just like, oh, this is it. Well, why'd you get your phone taken away? I don't even remember. You know? So it's like

Lucas:

There's no lesson there.

Christy:

No, there isn't a lesson there.

Lucas:

Right. And then, uh, so the next parenting style would be permissive.

Christy:

Yeah, you just let 'em do whatever they want.

Lucas:

Yeah. This is child driven child's in control. Um, you rarely give or enforce rules. You're probably gonna overindulge your child to avoid conflict. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. These might be the parents who are just trying to be their kid's friend. Uh, let them do whatever they want. And it's really all about avoiding conflict at the end of the day.

Christy:

Right. Or tears. Or it's like, like, it's like the parent that's in Target and the kid's like, I want that. And you're like, no. And they're like, but I want it <laugh>. And they're melting down. They're like, okay, fine. You can have it.

Lucas:

Yeah. Neglectful is uninvolved or absent. These are going to be parents who are maybe to an extreme maybe, like they're, they're not even home. They're just constantly getting a babysitter or if they're lucky a babysitter at they're really extreme levels. They're just not interacting with their kids at all. Or they provide little guidance to anything. They're just indifferent to their kids' needs. Both socially, emotionally, physically, sometimes. And so they're just, there's not parenting at all. They just are like a roommate with their kid. And they just let their kid do whatever they want and they're just not involved.

Christy:

Which is highly detrimental.

Lucas:

Super detrimental.

Christy:

Yeah. We don't, we don't want that. We'd be filing CPS reports.

Lucas:

Absolutely <laugh>

Christy:

On that sort of things.

Lucas:

Lastly, there's, and this is why authoritative gets confused sometimes. But it's authoritarian. And why, what's that one all about?

Christy:

That is, what I say goes, the parent is in charge. They are strict. There is, that is, that's, if I say you do it, you do it. And if you don't, I'm gonna consequence you for that.

Lucas:

Yeah. This is traditional, like old school parenting. In a nutshell. Parent driven, very strict rules and punishments. It's, there's no consideration for what the child thinks is the right approach to anything. It's just

Christy:

Understanding their emotions.

Lucas:

Right. My, like you said, my way or the highway. And that's it. There's no middle ground there.

Christy:

Sometimes physical punishment comes into that. Which we'll talk about later, I'm sure.

Lucas:

Oh, yes. <laugh>. Absolutely. We were talking about that. Uh, uh, so speaking of, uh, traditional parenting, like what do we mean when we say traditional parenting styles, Christy?

Christy:

It's like the old school, the adults in charge, and you will do what I say, and you've, and it, it's, it's not even giving care concern for what the other, what the child thinks or what their experience in the world is. It's just like, this is what I, this is what I tell you to do. This is what you're gonna do.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

And like the Von Trap family from the Sound of Music, that's what <laugh>,

Lucas:

There you go.

Christy:

That's what I think of when I think of that parenting style is like. He needed Maria real bad. <laugh>, <laugh>.

Lucas:

There's a large preoccupation of, uh, with resiliency I find in traditional parenting. So what I mean by that is like, you're gonna hear parents be like, kids just need to toughen up, or you just need to pull yourself up from your bootstraps mm-hmm <affirmative>. Which is technically impossible by the way. And when you do this, the reason that this can be detrimental, um, although I think it does come from a good place most of the time mm-hmm <affirmative>. When I talk to parents about this is that kids are still gonna feel the distress that they felt about things. Like a lot of times when it's like, kids need toughen up, it's because they're just too air quotes emotional mm-hmm <affirmative>. About things, or they just get upset about things too easily. They just cry all the time. Whatever. And when we teach kids to just toughen up and suck it up or pull yourself up from bootstraps, kids still feel the distress. They just stop showing it. They're taught to internalize their distress and then they never learn how to identify or control that. Which is incredibly detrimental. And I mean, that's, that can lead to a lot of different mental health issues as well. But when we talk about, like toxic masculinity, for example. Oftentimes boys are taught not to show their emotions. And so, um, it's not that they're not feeling it. They just don't let it out, which is super bad.

Christy:

It's interesting because I see a lot of men in therapy and a lot of them don't want people to know that they're going to therapy. I don't know if you guys know this, but men have emotions too.

Lucas:

<laugh>. Yes, we do. Isn't

Christy:

That wild?

Lucas:

As a man, I approve this message.

Christy:

<laugh>. Yeah. Like, and they're, they're very emotional, but they just don't have a lot of safe spaces to let them out. Especially kids who were raised in that sort of household because a, they never saw it role modeled from their mom or dad. And so they're just like, this is what I do. This is what works for my dad, so this is what has to work for me where we don't talk about it and I just have to silently suffer. It's no, you don't have to silently suffer.

Lucas:

And this stuff gets taught at a very young age and you don't have to necessarily say these things to them. Like, it's not like I, I was, I don't think I was ever told like, Hey, you need to suffer in silence and just not <laugh> cry. Like I just learned to do that. Um, I was, I just had a conversation with a kid this morning actually, uh, where I was like, what kind of person do you want to be? And he was like, I need to be strong. And I said, ok what does that mean? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. He's like, well, so when something upsets me, I don't let anybody show or don't let anybody see it. This kid's young. By the way, like really young. And I, I know that the parents never explicitly said that to him. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. But that's the lesson he's learned.

Christy:

If you look at any sort of societal, anything, it will tell you if a boy is, if a little boy is crying, you're like, come on, you're fine, you're fine. It's just, it's fine. And when, when a little girl starts crying, it's like, oh, come here, let me, they get hold, they get held and comforted and nurtured and it's okay to let out your cheers and whatever. And a lot of times with little boys, they're just like, oh, he's good. <laugh>.

Lucas:

You're fine.

Christy:

Rub a little mud on it. You're you're good.

Lucas:

Yep. Traditional parenting is, is very focused on automatic compliance. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Too. So this is especially hard for kids who might have some adhd. Where they are really impulsive or maybe aren't listening because they're super distracted. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so when you don't have that, like literally automatic compliance with some parents, it is very aggravating to them. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then it leads straight into yelling, sometimes spankings mm-hmm <affirmative>. Sometimes, you know, whatever mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, but there's no like trying to figure out what's going wrong here. It's just you listen or else.

Christy:

Right. And with kids with adhd, it, it is impossible. And so what they end up doing a lot of times is that they'll find maladaptive coping skills. 'cause they don't wanna get hit. They don't wanna get hurt. And so sometimes then it becomes even like a dissociation thing where they just kind of leave their body. 'cause they, they cannot do automatic compliance. They can't. And so it turns into something else and we don't wanna do that either. Something more serious. Typically speaking,

Lucas:

Traditional parenting is really just, there's a clear hierarchy mm-hmm <affirmative>. Of power dynamics mm-hmm <affirmative>. And parents are on top. Sometimes it gets so extreme that a certain parent is on top. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like the classic, just wait till your dad gets home mm-hmm. Sort of thing. Or wait till your mom gets home or hears about this, whatever. That's traditional parenting. Is there a place, Christy, where it is the, what the parent says goes and that just needs to be what it is.

Christy:

Yeah.

Lucas:

Give an example.

Christy:

<laugh>, um, like taking a bath. Maybe not at the time when they say it, like we can be a little flexible about that, but like, kids have to bathe. Kids have to go to bed. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like basic things that are going to keep them happy and healthy and those kinds of things where you're meeting their basic needs and Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Yeah. Like sometimes a parent has to say, or if it's, if something dangerous, if they're in a dangerous situation and it's like, you cannot do that. Right.

Lucas:

Right, yep.

Christy:

Like, that's fine. I get it.

Lucas:

Right. Like, if my kid's gonna walk out in the middle of the street and there's a car coming, I'm gonna, there's no if at, we're not gonna sit and talk about our options here, <laugh>.

Christy:

Right.

Lucas:

Like, I might even grab him Yeah. And make sure that he's okay. I am not going to sit there and scold him for that though. I might talk through what happened. And if I accidentally hurt his arm or something 'cause I squeezed really hard or whatever. Or I just scared him. Like, I'm gonna apologize for those things. Um, but yeah, there is a time where what a parent says needs to be what the op is the only option. And compliance is mandatory.

Christy:

Yep. And we have a, I have a hard time with that with kids sometimes. 'cause there there are some things that where parents are just like, I can't bend on this one. Like, I can't budge. And the kid's just like, I don't, I don't agree with them. And I said, but you gotta, like in this case, parents aren't gonna budge. We gotta figure out your curfew is 11 and that's what it is. Like we, there's no room for negotiation in that. 'cause the parent has set that 'cause that's, that's what goes in their house.

Lucas:

So we're not saying that like all aspects of like parents being full in control of something or having a, like a hard line on something is bad. That's not what we're saying. 'cause there is a time and a place for that. It's just when we go to extremes with anything we're going to have problems. So it's learning when, when to pick your battle, when to set that boundary and, and stand on that versus let's just maybe let it go. Or be open to other options. Oftentimes, like we, we've already said this, but traditional parenting is not very focused on the kids' thoughts and feelings. Um, because it's very stuck on that authoritarian or the authoritative mindset with, uh, the hierarchy. Is what I'm trying to get at.

Christy:

Yeah. And it doesn't, it doesn't mean that they don't have thoughts and feelings. And I think that's really important for people to, to recognize if you fall into this category of parenting is like you're, your kids are still having thoughts and feelings. You're just, they're just not comfortable telling you.

Lucas:

Yeah. Exactly. So then on the flip side, and this is, uh, slightly controversial nowadays because I think there's a lot of misunderstandings about it mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, but there's this phrase called gentle parenting.

Christy:

Oh, yes. <laugh>

Lucas:

<laugh>. And we, we talk about it a lot. Um, maybe not using those words, but I think it's, uh, in a lot of scrutiny mm-hmm <affirmative>. Typically, especially in our area. I would say. But what would you, how would you define gentle parenting? Christy?

Christy:

Gentle parenting is kind of like, I'll give an example. Like if a, if it's, if a kid throw something at your head, you don't say, don't throw that at my head. You say, Hey, at least you didn't throw it that hard. <laugh>. You know, so it's, it's, it's allowing kids to like mess up and not like come completely coming down on them and like, being gentle in your parenting. Like not having those strict consequences.

Lucas:

Yeah. You're trying to understand the behavior rather than just simply correcting it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So with the tractor example, even adding in there like, whoa, dude, like why did, like, what happened there? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, did you mean to throw that mm-hmm <affirmative>. Instead of jumping to the conclusion. Um, if it was an accident or he, they threw it, but it they meant to throw it but didn't mean to throw it at you. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right now we're Okay. Get it. It was an accident. Let's not throw that again. 'cause that could really hurt somebody or break something. Okay. Okay. Sorry. Sounds good. Now we move forward.

Christy:

Nurtured heart is a one that kind of falls into the gentle parenting category where it's, you're very much seeking to understand. And I think one of the major things that people it's scrutinized for is that people believe that it means that there's no expectations and no consequences. And that's not true.

Lucas:

Not at all.

Christy:

There, there are expectations in gentle parenting and there are consequences in gentle parenting. They just make sense.

Lucas:

Yes. It's just you're not getting after them about every single thing. And it's, it's allowing natural consequences to take place. A lot of people do what's called, um, I don't know if it's officially called this, but this is what I call it, like double consequencing. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So going back to that staying out late example, if they stay out late, there's going to sometimes, like a traditional approach might be they're, yeah. They're gonna get up early, but there's also gonna be a consequence on top of that. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. That may or may not even be logical. Like, find your phone is getting removed now for a month. We already got a consequence of like, they're really, really super tired, or maybe they already got a lecture mm-hmm <affirmative>. In the car, <laugh> or like when they got home. Like that was the consequence. We don't necessarily need to like, keep stacking things on. Um,

Christy:

I think of little Christy when she was little and I did something that I, that I was not supposed to do. There is not a person in the world who would make me feel worse than I made me, that I made myself feel. Like I would feel so much guilt that I let down my parents and what, like, my parents never had to consequence me because I did that all on my own <laugh>. Like I made a mistake and I would feel terrible forever. And that was my natural consequence and my parents knew that. And so, but that feeling of guilt and the feeling of disappointing someone sometimes that's enough

Lucas:

End it.

Christy:

I have enough of that.

Lucas:

<laugh>. Right. <laugh> we don't, we don't have to make it bigger. Or another thing is we don't have to keep talking about it. No.

Christy:

Oh no, my goodness.

Lucas:

If we, we've already talked about it. If we've, if there's, especially if there's already an apology and like, we, let's move forward. Let's just get, get through it and if they, if they do it again, we will have a conversation. There might be something a little bit more severe next time mm-hmm <affirmative>. But like, we don't need to continue to berate our kids. Um, in order to have there be change. It's just, it's just not necessary.

Christy:

Yeah. There's also something called collaborative problem solving that I think probably falls under gentle parenting as well. Where it's, it's really, um, bringing the kid into the discussion to say, Hey, this is, this is what I need from you. What are your needs? And the kids should say, well, I need this from you. It's like, okay, how can we both get our needs met and have what they call is a plan B? How can we get both of us get what we need out of this situation in a way that we can collaborate and, and figure out a, an idea or a solution.

Lucas:

Right. Yeah. Trying to work together to figure something out. Figure out a problem. Like this obviously isn't working. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I can speak for myself and other parents that I've talked to. We don't always have the best ideas.

Christy:

What <laugh>.

Lucas:

It's crazy.

Christy:

That's wild.

Lucas:

Crazy. And sometimes we have the wrong idea. And our kids, they know themselves pretty well. And maybe they have a really good idea as to how to solve this problem. Let's listen to them.

Christy:

I think one of the biggest things with being a parent is that it can be so emotional. It's emotionally driven. Where it's like you're either scared or you're just real big mad, or you're like, ah, just so frustrated that you end up parenting out of frustration and out of emotion. And so sometimes plug for therapy here, but sometimes when you come in and you have an objective person who doesn't have the emotional tie to whatever the situation is, and you can kind of clearly see that there's a path one way or the other. And a parent be like, I didn't even think of that. Because you, you get so clouded by emotion in the situation that it's, it's hard to see where the, the natural or logical route is, but an objective third party can help you with that.

Lucas:

And gentle parenting is all about understanding that mm-hmm <affirmative>. And trying to figure out the best way to do that without needing to utilize just pure authority and like, I'm in charge mentality. You're trying to raise confident, independent, happy kids, developing empathy and respect and setting healthy boundaries with your kids. Like that's all about, that's all gentle parenting is about. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Gentle parenting is like, we're, we're working on identifying emotions. Okay. What are you feeling right now? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Okay. And what are we gonna do about that? Rather than just like, no, you're not allowed to do that. Um, this morning, actually funny, my kiddo, uh, he was, I think most parents can relate with me on this, where kids just like, they're, they're doing something they're not necessarily supposed to. Like, he's supposed to get his jacket on mm-hmm <affirmative>. And his shoes on, and he thought he was being really funny by,

Christy:

He is really funny.

Lucas:

He is super funny, but he was not funny this morning <laugh>, uh, <laugh> where he was like, he's trying to prevent me from getting his shoes on and prevent me from getting his coat on. So I get a shoe on and I try to get the other one on, and then he just kick that one off and he, he's giggling and laughing and stuff. <laugh>. It's not funny. Christy.

Christy:

That is funny. I can picture it and I think it's hilarious.

Lucas:

It's not funny. And so what I like, I had a lot of urges in that moment to to yell or to like restrain him in some, like, to make it happen, like Right. Just 'cause we have urges doesn't mean we follow through with them, Christy.

Christy:

That's right. I know.

Lucas:

Uh, but like, I think a lot of parents can empathize with me on that one. Uh, but what I chose to do was thankfully the right choice on the day that we're doing the parenting Uh, podcast. I said, I stopped him and I said, Ollie, how do you think dad feels right now when you do that? And he looked at me and he goes, mad. I said, you're right. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So can we, can we not do that anymore? I don't think it's funny. And he's like, okay. And then he just stopped and he put his stuff on and we were good to go. And he gave me a big hug. I hugged him, we're fine. Moved on, we dropped it. We're not talking about it anymore. So

Christy:

Until it happens again.

Lucas:

Until it happens again, <laugh>, um, which it will. But, but that's gentle parenting. That there was, it wasn't just like, okay, fine. Like we just won't leave until you're ready. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like, no, we, we needed to go, I need to get to work. And you need to go to daycare. And this is how this was making me feel. We have identified emotions and we move past it.

Christy:

Right. I think, and it's, it's not, you're not gonna be perfect all the time. Right. Like, you're, you're you, Lucas has maybe once or twice yelled <laugh> or raised his voice <laugh> at his child.

Lucas:

You couldn't even keep a straight face.

Christy:

I know. But I think part, and and I say this because a part of gentle parenting too, is being able to come back and apologize to children and say, I am so sorry I lost my temper. Or I am so sorry I didn't listen to you. And there's so much power in coming back and saying that to a child when you lost it. Like, you don't get to be like, you just have to deal with it because I got mad 'cause you made me mad. It's like, Ooh, we probably shouldn't really yell at kids. You know, when it's not necessary. Uh, and I'm sorry.

Lucas:

Yeah. That and that happened. And honestly, that is one of the, the best like relationship building moments mm-hmm <affirmative>. That we might even have where I'm just sitting there, I'm apologizing for something that I did, I truly, I did wrong. And I shouldn't have responded that way. And we, there's hugs involved and he's like, I love you daddy, and like all, and we just, we move forward and what I'm doing is I'm role modeling how to recover from a mistake. And then he has started doing that to me now. Where if he makes a mistake, he's like, I'm sorry. I did that. Um,

Christy:

Role modeling weird.

Lucas:

I know. And so that's, that's gentle parenting. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And there's a, it's a very large umbrella as to like how you do gentle parenting. Um, nurtured heart approach is one approach to that. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. There's a ton of different kinds.

Christy:

You know, who's really good at Gentle Parenting who <laugh> eighties sitcom families, eighties and ni like Family Ties or even like Full House, which is more nineties, but there was always like, everything is good and then somebody does something wrong and then somebody loses their temper, but then they all come back together and they're like, oh, I understand. You know? Like, all of those are like, it's gentle parenting.

Lucas:

Yeah, it is. Absolutely. That's, I didn't even think of that. <laugh>, that's a really good example.

Christy:

Right.

Lucas:

Specifically talking about nurtured heart approach. Uh, just for a minute though. It's one of the, I would say, unique things about it is that it's very focused on energy. Um, so there's, we get energy from people, or kids get energy from us, and they don't really care where the energy comes from or the, or the reason it's there. They just want our energy and we give them energy by giving them attention. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or giving them a response mm-hmm <affirmative>. To something. Right. The easiest way to get a response out of somebody is to do something negative mm-hmm <affirmative>. And typically a traditional approach, that's going to be the biggest response, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Now they're gonna probably show that they didn't like how the response went, but uh, they don't really care. That's why they keep doing it. Right. And so the idea is that we give low energy responses to negative or unwanted behaviors, and then we give high energy responses to wanted behaviors. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. My favorite analogy to describe this is if anybody has ever played like a video game, like Super Mario Bros. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Okay. If you don't know what that is, just, I don't know if you're living under a rock or like.

Christy:

I don't know if we can help you <laugh>.

Lucas:

I don't like, I don't know. Uh, but anyways, you, when you're doing, when you're playing the game, I'm,

Christy:

I'm so interested to see where this is gonna go. <laugh>

Lucas:

When you play the game, uh, and you, you die or you fall off the ledge or whatever, like all it is is it's just this little jingle. You like, fly up in the air, you fall down, it screen turns black, you start over. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. That's it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. It's all, it's when you win, when you get to the end, there are fireworks. There's a, there's music, flashing lights, there's a dance. Like it's a huge deal. And that's how we should be responding to kids.

Christy:

That is the nerdiest analogy I've ever heard expect. And it makes so much sense though.

Lucas:

Right. Did you expect anything less than me though.

Christy:

I never actually <laugh>.

Lucas:

And so, uh.

Christy:

That's that's beautiful.

Lucas:

Yeah. And when, so like when we are, when we have something that we don't like that's happening, lower your energy response. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Parents can get really good at that. I will just, uh, point this out, but they forget the next part, which is when they start doing the thing we want them to do, we have to give them the energy. It's really easy to ignore unwanted behavior, but if you don't give them energy to the, to the wanted stuff, there's not gonna be any change happening. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And all you have is no energy given. And kids are like, I don't know what to do. And so now they're just guessing. And we don't want kids to guess 'cause they're really bad at it. So when they do something, even if it's just a little bit like that blow up. It's going to feel awkward if you're doing this right. It's gonna feel awkward. And it's not just like, oh my God, good job. It's Wow. Christy, when you opened that door for me, that showed me a lot of respect for me. And it just showed like how awesome of a person you are. I just thank you so much for doing that.

Christy:

Yeah you're welcome. Yeah. I didn't even open the door and I feel better.

Lucas:

You're right, exactly. It's just, it feels really good. It's that sort of response, right? You're you're tying the action to like who they are as a person. And it, um, it's really, really awesome to hear that. Now, one other thing is, uh, especially when you're first starting this, uh, and the more, uh, challenging, we'll say your child might be, it's gonna be more important to do this. So it's called creating successes. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So going with the opening the door analogy, the, if Christy were to open the door and then I speed walk through it, almost like budging in front, and then I immediately turn around and be like, oh my god, Christy, thank you so much for opening that door for me.

Christy:

Oh my god.

Lucas:

Right. I created success. They weren't gonna open that door for me. But I made it so. And now I, the idea is that they're going to be more likely to do that in the future because I just made it seem like they did something really awesome. And another way that this can look, and I've done this in my office and it works almost every time where I have a kid who I'm like, Hey buddy, time to clean up. And then they, they pick something up, they're not gonna pick that up. They're gonna play with it some more. And I just start praising them for picking it up. And I'm like, oh my God, thank you so much for listening right away. This is amazing. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I I didn't expect you to listen right away. You are so awesome. And let me help you actually and clean this up.

Christy:

Do you know how many thousands of Lincoln Logs I've gotten picked up <laugh> in my, in my office for doing just that?

Lucas:

Yeah. It works.

Christy:

Yes it does.

Lucas:

Sometimes it doesn't.

Christy:

Right. <Laugh>, right. Well, I think, I think that's, I think true. Not, not every parenting style works for every kid.

Lucas:

Every time.

Christy:

Every time. Right. Like, there are some kids that will not be gentle parented. Like that's not, it's not comfortable for them. It's not. And and sometimes they don't need it. Not, not all kids need like a super specified way of parenting. Like a lot of, a lot of neurotypical kids, they'll, they'll respond to just like normal parenting styles, you know? But there are situations if you have a challenging kid or if, if you, if you don't have a challenging kid and it's just the way you want to raise your children, great. But there are some kids that are super uncomfortable with the constant praise and they don't need it. So it's like, I would guess that any parent that has more than one child has recognized that you can't parent one the same way that you parent the other.

Lucas:

That's exactly right.

Christy:

They're, they're just so different.

Lucas:

And that's why I know therapy plug, <laugh>, <laugh> being in therapy, a therapist can help you figure out what that is for your kid. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I find that there's just like with therapy modalities, that there's no one therapy modality that is perfect for every single case. There's no one parenting approach. And I even in my, with my own kid, I mix 'em up. Like some days a more traditional style is what we need. And some other days it's more of a gentle style. We just gotta roll with the punches.

Christy:

We do. And I, we talk, we've, I'm sure we've talked about love languages probably in our relationship podcast, but they also work with children. And you have to figure out which one of those is, is what they are. So we, oh my god, I'm gonna forget them. But quality time, acts of service, gifts, words of affirmation, physical touch. Oh, I got it.

Lucas:

Nice

Christy:

Good for me. And I look at me and my brothers and our, our needs are very different. Like I am definitely a words of affirmation, quality time, kind of girly where I think my older brother is probably more like acts of service. And that's, and you have to figure out what does your kid need from you and give that to them.

Lucas:

Right. Yeah. And it working hand in hand with a therapist. 'cause you are the expert on your kids. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. We've, we've truly, truly believe that we're just here to help. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. We just have some, maybe some extra knowledge about other random stuff. That might be helpful.

Christy:

Or sometimes it's just an objective view. Sometimes that's all we have. <laugh>

Lucas:

That's all. Yeah.

Christy:

And sometimes that's all we're good for.

Lucas:

<laugh>, but it's, it's enough. 'cause I mean, those moments can be really, really frustrating mm-hmm <affirmative>. And having somebody on the outside look in and be like, so what helping you process through those things can be really helpful to decide what would be the best approach for your kid. With that being said, like we talked a bit about judgment from parents and all that stuff, and I think it's really interesting when you look at parenting norms around the world mm-hmm <affirmative>. That the, the people, it's just so different. And what we would, I was saying a couple of 'em before we started, and it is, if somebody were to do that, do, like here Denmark babies are often left in strollers outside with like high tech monitors while parents will like go eat mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or will shop, like, you'll just see strollers with babies in them.

Christy:

That's so weird.

Lucas:

If you saw that in the US, people would freak out.

Christy:

I know Dougie Fresh over here was like, that's not true. Is it <laugh>? Because it's like, yeah, it is <laugh>. it's weird.

Lucas:

Yep. Or like in Norway, babies will sleep outside in all weather. It doesn't matter what the weather is. Um,

Christy:

It's cold in Norway. Just put 'em on the Fjord and call it good.

Lucas:

<laugh>. They, they're like in a, in a special stroller. They have like blankets and stuff like that. They just believe that the fresh air is really good for them. And then the, the being in different environments helps build like immunity and stuff like that. Yeah. So there'll be like for nap time or whatever, they'll just be out on the deck and while all the family's inside. And they're hanging out. So

Christy:

We'd have to file a report on that.

Lucas:

Yeah. But in Norway it's super, super common.

Christy:

That's them taking care the best care of their baby. Yeah. That's so funny.

Lucas:

And, and so like if they come, they, somebody from Norway to be here would be like, why aren't your babies outside?

Christy:

Right, losers <laugh>. Do you hate your children

Lucas:

<laugh>? Right. Or like in Finland we're like in the Nordic areas right now, but like.

Christy:

Scan nuvia.

Lucas:

Yeah. Scan Nuvia, Finland for every 45 minutes of work play is encouraged for 15 minutes.

Christy:

Okay. I can get on board with that.

Lucas:

Yeah. I love that.

Christy:

Can we do that at work?

Lucas:

Right. And then I can hear Shelby being like, you guys play Uno in your sessions for 45 minutes so you guys get to play.

Christy:

Uh, shut up Shelby.

Lucas:

Because we have the best jobs. Yeah, that's true. <laugh>, Japan children will often use public transportation on their own to run errands for their family. Building up independence and decision making skills. So like we have these like six year olds who are running around the city getting errands and stuff like that. Like we would also have to follow a report for that.

Christy:

Right, exactly.

Lucas:

It's just wild how different things can be.

Christy:

Oh, we don't even let kids stay at home alone when they're six years old.

Lucas:

Many parts of Africa raising children is considered a community effort.

Christy:

Oh yeah.

Lucas:

And that's a big adjustment for immigrants. We've, in the, his in, uh, in Fargo, North Dakota and our area, like we had a pretty big influx of immigrants mm-hmm <affirmative> from that area of the world where that is very common mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so there was a time where CPS was getting a lot of reports of just kids being, and 'cause they're expecting the community to help them with that. And that's just not how we do things here. So they had to get a lot of education was provided. Like, nobody's gonna watch your kid for you. <laugh>. So it's really dangerous actually.

Christy:

And, and I think conversely we've had to get educated on on the, on their, on, on what's important to them and what they value and how can we provide what they need from our community to help them. Because we wanna raise our, we we all, we wanna raise our kids too. And so if you're, if you're here, you belong to us and we wanna help, but we don't always know, it's, we have to learn and be educated on what it is that they need from us and how we can provide that because

Lucas:

They're not actually being neglectful. They're doing what's best for their kids. Because that's what they were. It'd be just like if somebody from Norway came over and put their baby outside. <laugh>. Like, they have this, this is just what if, this is how you do it. Right. So there's a lot of tradition in, in parenting and a lot of cultural differences and there's not necessarily, not necessarily like a right way mm-hmm <affirmative>. or like one right way. Is what I'm meaning to say to do it.

Christy:

I think, I don't know how many times you've heard this Lucas, but I think I've heard it about 72,000 times, is that the parents come in and say, I'm ruining my kid.

Lucas:

Oh, I say that to you <laugh>,

Christy:

That's accurate. You are, you make up a solid 1000 of the 72,000 things. But we hear that all the time where parents come in and it's like, I'm just, I'm ruining my kid. I know I am. No you're not. You are in a therapy office taking care of your child's needs. I assure you that you are not ruining your child.

Lucas:

Exactly.

Christy:

And one parent, one bad parenting moment. Okay. Thousands of bad parenting moments doesn't make you a bad parent. We're I bet everybody knows that. I think my mom and dad are the best. Right? I think they're the best. I bet if you ask them, they would say that they messed up all of the time and that, that they are just, they're probably worried forever that they messed us up. <laugh>, <laugh>. But when I look back on my childhood as their, as their child, I only have happy memories. Like I don't, not only, I mean obviously there's some bad times, but I don't think about the times my parents screwed up and I probably didn't even know. You know, like you have no recollection of those things really when you're a kid. And so it's like, you can have, you can have bad parenting moments and it's okay. You're not ruining your child.

Lucas:

Right, yeah.

Christy:

There's not a perfect parent in the world.

Lucas:

Yeah. And our kids oftentimes think we are perfect.

Christy:

Right, exactly.

Lucas:

Even when we're not.

Christy:

Right. It's like you're, you sit there and you judge yourself so much and the unconditional love of kids is like, it's pretty intense.

Lucas:

Yeah. Oh yeah.

Christy:

And they also just forget things a lot.

Lucas:

Well, there's that too.

Christy:

Delete. Yep. <laugh>, everything's fine now.

Lucas:

So going into some behavior modification, there's a lot of misunderstandings and just misinformation about behavior modification. We're not gonna go too much into it, but just like the basics. So like one-on-one stuff. So we often hear things like positive reinforcement or negative reinforcement and or like punishment and what, what is all of this? So a reinforcer is anything that encourages a behavior to continue. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. A punishment is anything that tries to stop or lessen a behavior. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So this is where people get confused. Now there's a positive and negative component mm-hmm <affirmative>. Positive reinforcement, everybody gets that correct. You are giving something to somebody to make them continue doing it like a reward. Right. Positive just means you are adding something. Negative means you're taking it away. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Negative reinforcement still is trying to make a behavior continue. It's just you're removing something from it in order to make it continue. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. An example of that would be like, like a car beeping at you because you don't, you're not buckled in mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so then you, you buckle your seat and then it stops beeping. So goodness. The beeping was taken away and it makes you want to continue to buckle up your seatbelt mm-hmm <affirmative>. So

Christy:

That I just had flashbacks to like psych 1 0 1 where I was like, I remember trying to memorize that for tests and it was like, I don't know why my brain had such a hard time working on that. But it did.

Lucas:

And, and conversely, so the positive punishment is that you're giving something in order to be a punishment to, uh, lessen the behavior. So like a spanking mm-hmm <affirmative>. For example, would be an example of that. Or, and then like negative punishment would be like taking a phone away. Because you're misusing it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So what is which, uh, one of those four is the most successful at modifying behavior?

Christy:

Positive reinforcement.

Lucas:

Every single time.

Christy:

Got it.

Lucas:

Yes <laugh>, uh,

Christy:

Every single time.

Lucas:

Anytime you're trying to modify behavior, you're going to run the risk of what's called an extinction burst. Christy, what's an extinction

Christy:

Burst? I always think of, I, I had Dr. Susan Larson in at Concordia and we had our little mice that we had to train. And so it's like when a, when a mouse comes up to a, to the lever and it gets food and it, the food comes down, it's like, yay. So then it keeps hitting the lever. 'cause every time it hits the lever, it gets positive reinforcement, which is food. And then at some point you take it so when they hit the lever, the food doesn't come out and they're like, crap, <laugh>. Now what do I do? And they maybe do it like once or two or other, two or three other times and they're still not getting it. And so they just end up pounding on that. Wow. Then up pounding, pounding on the, on the lever hoping that the food comes out. And then they, they finally get to realize, okay, no matter how many times I do this, the food's not gonna come out. And then they stop hitting the lever. And so it's, it's the lever, the burst of the lever is the extinction burst. And we talk about this all the time with parents is that it's gonna get harder before it gets easier because that extinction burst has to come if you want the behavior to change.

Lucas:

Exactly. So going back to or, uh, earlier example of the classic, like a kid wanting candy in a store mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right. Um, if you were trying, so if a permissive parent were to want to start to become more authoritative mm-hmm <affirmative>. In their approaches, they might say no. Finally. That child is going to have an extinction burst. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And you're probably already putting the pieces together. There's gonna be a large tantrum. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Christy:

In the middle of Target.

Lucas:

In the middle of Target. Okay. So this is embarrassing. This is painful. This,

Christy:

Did you do it?

Lucas:

Have I have I done this before?

Christy:

Yes.

Lucas:

No.

Christy:

Oh. I was like.

Lucas:

But I have empathize. I can empathize with people. So when this happens, there's gonna be a large explosion mm-hmm. Of emotion. And what they're trying to do is essentially coerce you mm-hmm. Into giving it to them. This is the most important part. If you give in right now, you've just set the new bar for where to start their next extinction burst mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it's going to get louder next time. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So push through this. I I have no idea how long it's gonna last. I don't know how intense it's gonna get, but it will end. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. It always ends.

Christy:

Everything changes and ends.

Lucas:

So hold strong in there and <laugh>.

Christy:

You can do it.

Lucas:

You just buckle up. I'm serious. And eventually will end. And once that happens, the next time you say no, there might be a little one, but it's gonna be less mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then less and less until eventually it's just not happening anymore. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because that's just the new standard. But you have to get, get through the extinction burst in order to have any sort of change. That's just how, how it works.

Christy:

Yep. And it, it, it is and it is painful. And it's something as simple as like if you have a kid who's always like, I want my video games back, or something like that and, and the parent is like, no. And they're like, I want, I'm out my video games back and they become relentless and then they, and then they yell and they're like, give me my video games back. And it might get to be the point where even you might get scared mm-hmm <affirmative>. But it's like if you give in that it's pos you're positively reinforcing. If you give them their video games back, you're positively reinforcing a negative behavior. And so you're saying that that was a successful thing to do. You don't want them to believe that yelling and constantly asking is a successful way to get their needs met. It's basic science.

Lucas:

Yes. Now, there are times where things get really, really outta hand. Maybe the extinction burst gets so bad that, like Christy said, you're getting really scared. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, if you're getting to a point like that, like a don't give in. But it's okay to ask for help. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. To the extent of like, maybe you need to call law enforcement mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right. Or

Christy:

Take a time out, walk away.

Lucas:

Take a time out, you know, whatever.

Christy:

Take team somebody.

Lucas:

...is age appropriate. Take a team. If you have family or friends that can come over and support you during that time, that'd be great. You just...

Christy:

Phone a friend.

Lucas:

You just do not give in. And we will, and I would say if they're really that escalated and let's say that they punch a hole through a wall or something like that mm-hmm <affirmative>. Don't address a hole in the wall yet. Just wait until they come down 'cause they're not gonna hear you anyways. But then there can be a logical consequence like fixing it, in the future, but let's not.

Christy:

And they probably have a hurt hand.

Lucas:

Right. Yeah. That too mm-hmm <affirmative>. But if you're working with a therapist, which if we're dealing with extinction bursts at that level, please see a therapist. We can help you figure those things out. So if you're experiencing an extinction burst, that's where the change happens. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So just hang in there.

Christy:

And we and it, it is more helpful to do this under the guidance of a therapist. 'cause we will get you and the kid in the room together and say, just so you know, this is the plan, they're not gonna give in. And we are telling 'em that they're not gonna give in. Like, do you understand that this is what's so, so the expectation is there. It's not just kind of sprung on them that that works better for older kids, younger kids, they just don't understand. But...

Lucas:

They'll forget that that conversation happened.

Christy:

Yeah. Right. But when you have older kids to be like, this is what we're gonna do and they're like, it usually makes it a lot easier when we're all on the same page and we're all in agreement. That makes a huge difference in the success of any sort of plan.

Lucas:

Yep. And I'll often tell parents too, um, and the kids that like, this is, this is a plan. I'm telling your parents to do this. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So if don't get mad at your parents, you could be mad at me. That's okay.

Christy:

And they don't get mad at you.

Lucas:

And they don't get mad at me. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. That's why I'm not worried about it. And so, or parents, I'll have them like, it's okay to be like, no, Lucas told us that. This is what we have to do now. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And that's okay.

Christy:

I say, throw me under the bus, all the time. <laugh> if you Christy said, that's fine. If that works, that works. 'cause sometimes it's just a reminder just to say my name or Lucas's name or whoever the therapist's name is. It's just a reminder of the conversations that we've had to get them back. It's almost like a grounding technique too, to be like, okay, Christy got it. Yep. I remember that. This is what it was. And sometimes just saying the name is enough to be like, okay, yeah, I got it.

Lucas:

What are some things that don't work? We've talked about a lot of like how there's not just one way to parent correctly mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or to do, you know, get the results you need. So what do we know? There's a lot of research on what does not work.

Christy:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Well, physical punishment does not work.

Lucas:

That includes spanking.

Christy:

That includes spanking. I've always said that spanking, spanking is a is for the parent and not for the child. You're not, you're not teaching them anything. You're not fixing anything. You're not, you are not doing anything but making your child scared of you.

Lucas:

Yep. Research we, they have been doing research about this for decades mm-hmm <affirmative>. And there's not a single study out there that indicates that there is a positive benefit from spanking. It increases aggression in children. It shows them that violence is an appropriate response to anger and frustration. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, there's ties to an increased risks of depression, anxiety, drug use, alcohol use, and even future abuse of partners and kids. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Spanking does not work. Um, now some, I've talked to a lot of people about spanking mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I always get well, like, well I was spanked as a kid and I learned my lesson. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, now when I break that down with them mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I have them actually talk through those things. The spanking is always associated with some sort of a conversation. Mm-hmm <affirmative> because you had to have something tie the spanking to the, uh, behavior in order to understand it. And it's the conversation Where you learned your lesson. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. The spanking was just added on there because if you were just spanked for, and no, no reason was given, you likely, very likely would not understand what even is even going on.

Christy:

No.

Lucas:

So it's always the conversation. It's not about the spanking.

Christy:

And it's, it's a, it's a, when you know better, you do better situation just because, I mean, we've come a long way in understanding parenting and what works and what doesn't work. And when every bit of scientific evidence is saying, this doesn't work, we should probably listen. And so just because you went through it that way, I guarantee you as a child, they were scared. They were made to feel ashamed. They were made to feel guilty and embarrassed. And why would you wanna put that back on your own child?

Lucas:

Yeah, exactly. I've had, like I said, I've had a lot of conversations with, and sometimes I've been able to go really, really in depth with the parents, um, to try and figure out what exactly they experienced. And every time I've done that, they have indicated that when they were really, really struggling with behaviors and like really angry, they were getting spanked and then all of a sudden they stopped having behaviors. And I said, so when did your parents stop spanking you? And they're like, well, a year before that mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like weird. You started doing much better. Like your anger was better and you were controlling yourself when your parents started having conversations with you rather than spanking you. So, and that every single a hundred percent of the time I've gotten, gotten that far with having that conversation. That's what ends up happening. So

Christy:

You're never gonna get, you're never going to convince me there's not a person in the world that's gonna come into my office and convince me that it's okay to spank their child.

Lucas:

Absolutely not. If, to be really frank, if you do that to an adult, it's called assault. So,

Christy:

And I always think, I always ask that if if somebody comes up and punches you in the face, are you more likely to be like, oh, now I get what you're saying.

Lucas:

Right. My bad, bad.

Christy:

Thank you for punching me in the face. That was the most effective way to get me to listen to you.

Lucas:

Right. No.

Christy:

No. It's the same concept.

Lucas:

Yep, so please don't spank your kids. Please. Constant yelling is another thing. Um, it leaves kids in a constant state of stress. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, loud households are very stressful for kids. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And depending on the kid, it can be even more stressful. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like if we're dealing with like autism spectrum disorders or things like that mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, so

Christy:

It puts your little brain in fight or flight.

Lucas:

All the time.

Christy:

All the time.

Lucas:

Um, things like emotional neglect, permissive parenting, we've talked about those things already, but emotional neglect is a very specific type of neglect. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Where like a physical neglect is like, uh, neglecting somebody's physical needs, like food, shelter of those sorts of things. Emotional neglect is not allowing your children to express or understand their own emotions. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, maybe you're telling them to like, suck it up or just not feel things mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or like, you're, you're just overreacting, like knock it off, you're fine. To an extreme, those things can be considered emotional neglect. And that can be really damaging to children.

Christy:

Extraordinarily damaging. And I think the, the hardest thing about emotional neglect is it's hard to prove. Um, physical, physical neglect or physical punishment. Um, somebody hits you, you have a bruise, we can prove that that's happening. Emotional neglect is more manipulative and it's, it's just, you can't, there's nothing on paper that says that you are being emotionally neglected. And so a lot of times when we talk to people about it, they're like, I wasn't emotionally abused, or I wasn't emotionally neglected. Yes, you were. And sometimes people go, oh crap, <laugh>. Like, 'cause they just never, because, because I'm not getting hit, I'm not being abused and that is not true.

Lucas:

Exactly. Shame-based parenting, <laugh>,

Christy:

<laugh>, I don't need any more of that than I already have.

Lucas:

Uh, this can lead to developing an internalized belief that you're inherently wrong, broken, or that something is just not right with you. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. An example of shame-based parenting. So this is where you use shame in order to create change. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, if you, like, if my kid were to like, do something and then I were to call his mom and say, tell your mom what you just did. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I'm shaming him. Right. And that doesn't make things better. It just makes them feel really gross and makes them feel like they're a horrible person. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it starts to slowly, uh, become attributed to who they are as a person. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Rather than what they did. As a mistake.

Christy:

I had a kid once who's, he was a bed wetter and he would wet the bed and whenever he wet the bed, his parents would put the sheets outside on the line so everybody could see that he had wet the bed that night.

Lucas:

Oh wow.

Christy:

Like that's shameful.

Lucas:

Yeah Mm-hmm <affirmative>. That's not okay.

Christy:

No, that's shame-based parenting <laugh>.

Lucas:

Yeah. So please don't do that. Um, inconsistent parenting is also something, so if you're flipping between like a permissive style and an authoritarian or authoritative style, um, you're gonna leave your kids very confused. So, and oftentimes behaviors will, will come from that mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, so make sure that when you are doing something that you're doing it the same way, unless it's one of these things that we're talking about, don't do mm-hmm <affirmative>. Then change it. <laugh>, um, <laugh>, but it often leaves 'em confused, frustrated, angry. They don't know what to expect. And so they're just constantly on edge with things.

Christy:

And I think that is so important also to note, to note that it is incredibly important that both parents are on the same page.

Lucas:

Oh man. Yeah.

Christy:

Both if you're living in the same house or if you're divorced parents to make sure that you are on the same page with how you're choosing to parent your child. Otherwise that gets so confusing and, and kids learn how to get their needs met in ways that are different. I'm trying to not use the word manipulation. With, with each different parent. It's like, well, I know what I need to do with dad, I know what I need to do with mom and you know, whatever. Everybody needs to be on the same page.

Lucas:

Yeah, so as we've been talking about all these things, um, and like what not to do and like mistakes that you can make as a parent or like ways to do things better, I am certain that there are some people listening right now that'll be like, oh my gosh, I have messed up my kids forever. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I am the worst. And they're experiencing what's called parent guilt. Um,

Christy:

Which I think, I think they give that out at the hospital when kids are born.

Lucas:

I think they do.

Christy:

Yeah, like you get parent guilt and you get parent guilt.

Lucas:

Yeah. It's just, it's just part of being a parent. Or at least a parent that really cares about their kid. We'll say <laugh>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So and wants them to turn out awesome. Right? Which I think most of us do. But it comes from a sense of like being responsible for your kids. Not only just safety, but like happiness and wellbeing. Like you are in charge of all of that. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so if something isn't right, then that's your fault. Um, which isn't true. Or like balancing responsibility, like being torn between having to go to work for something and then not being able to like, take care of your kid who's sick and maybe like grandma has to take care of him so you feel guilty 'cause he can't do that 'cause he can't take off work. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or you're setting like super high expectations of like, your child should have this perfect life, whatever that means. It's all of that is irrational.

Christy:

Right. It's if you are a parent who is tuning into a mental health podcast about parenting, you're doing okay. Good for you. Yeah. We love this for you.

Lucas:

Absolutely.

Christy:

I think a lot of times too when you have kids that are, are neurodivergent or have some sort of mental health issue, a lot of parents like, I screwed them up. Nope, you didn't. They're gen genetics. They're born that way. Like, there's nothing that you did that's making you a bad parent. You are in a therapist's office taking care of your child's needs. You are doing great sweetie. You know.

Lucas:

And okay, let's just go there. Let's say you're not doing great right now, you're trying to do better. Because obviously you're listening to this. Or obviously you're going, you're getting your child therapy or whatever like you are trying to improve. That's what's important. That's what makes you a good parent mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because you're trying to do better for your kids and for yourself.

Christy:

Right. Totally.

Lucas:

And so there's some, you know, obviously self-care is really important when you're trying to cope with some parent guilt, asking for support, practicing self-compassion. Hmm. Um, I am totally being hypocritical when I talk about some of these things by the way, because I have...

Christy:

The look on your face is hilarious.

Lucas:

I have so much parent guilt sometimes guys. One thing that's really been helpful for me and my parent guilt is focusing on what I would call like the 80 20 model. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So like 80% of the time we try our best to be on the plan. Like we're trying to eat healthy food, we're trying to like be empathetic and trying to like be really that gentle parenting approach as much as possible. Trying to do our best 20% of the time we kinda just throw it out the window <laugh> like, you know, 'cause just life happens. So you know what, tonight we're having pizza. We're like tonight. You know what, I'm not cooking. It was a hard day. I'm getting McDonald's

Christy:

Looks like a screen time kind of Saturday.

Lucas:

Right? Yep.

Christy:

Yep. That's fine.

Lucas:

You're gonna be on the iPad today I guess. Well, because

Christy:

We need to take care of ourselves.

Lucas:

Right. That's okay. 'cause it's, it's not most of the time and like having that every now and again is not going to hurt anything. They're probably gonna think that McDonald's is awesome. Right. Even though you feel guilty about it, they're like, this is the best meal ever.

Christy:

Right. Mom loves me so much. Dad, love dad. Dad loves me so much.

Lucas:

So just be kind to yourself. You're doing the best you can. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and we're always trying to do better, but celebrate the wins along the way. We always want to encourage you to ask the question, is it just me? You're likely not alone. And there is always a way to help. If anything we've talked about today resonates with you, please reach out.

Christy:

Do you have a topic you'd like us to talk about? Message us. We'd love to hear from you. Our email address is, isitjustme@dakotaranch.org or just, you know, text one of us or Facebook message? Facebook. Instagram. Instagram. Ooh, Dakota Family Services now has an Instagram page. Did you hear?

Lucas:

That's exciting.

Christy:

I'm so excited about it. So give us a follow on Instagram

Lucas:

And don't forget to share us with your friends and family.

Announcer:

Thanks for listening to today's episode of Is It Just Me? To learn more or make an appointment for psychiatric or mental health services at Dakota Family Services, go to dakotafamilyservices.org or call 1 800 2 0 1 64 95.

Other Podcast Episodes