About the Hosts

Christy Wilkie provides therapy for children and adolescents, ages 5-25, who have complex behavioral health issues. She combines her extensive clinical expertise with a belief in kids, and has a unique ability to find and develop their strengths. She works hard to be an ideal therapist for her clients, doing what is best to fit their needs.

Lucas Mitzel provides therapy for children, adolescents, and adults, ages 5 - 30. He believes building relationships with clients is the most important piece of successful therapy. He loves what he does because it allows him to walk next to people he would never have met had he chosen a different profession, as they work to make amazing life changes. He has the honor of meeting people at their worst, all while watching them grow into the people they’ve always wanted to be.

Transcript
Navigating Psychological Testing: Should Everyone Get Tested?

Featuring Christy Wilkie, LCSW, and Lucas Mitzel, LCSW, Dakota Family Services

Announcer: 

This episode of, Is It Just Me?, Is brought to you by Dakota Family Services, your trusted partner in mental and behavioral health, whether you need in-person or virtual care. The team of professionals at Dakota Family Services is dedicated to supporting children, adolescents, and adults in their journey to better mental health. 

Christy: 

Disrupting life patterns and life routines that aren't serving you. 

Lucas: 

It's how we feel that keeps us going. 

Christy: 

You can be a masterpiece in a work of art all at the same time. 

Lucas: 

Hey everyone, I'm Lucas. 

Christy: 

And I'm Christy. 

Lucas: 

And you're listening to the Is It Just Me podcast. 

Christy: 

Where we aim to provide education, decrease the stigma, and expel some myths around mental health. 

Lucas: 

Megan, is it just me or should we all get tested? 

Dr. Spencer: 

Heck no. <laugh>, 

Lucas: 

Uh, <laugh>, we have a guest and this is really exciting. 

New Speaker: 

How fun. 

Lucas: 

This is our first guest. 

Christy: 

We're so pumped about it. 

Lucas: 

Dr. Megan Spencer is joining us today. She's one of our psychologists here through DFS. Megan, do you wanna just, I don't know, do a brief introduction of who you are, why you're so awesome? 

Dr. Spencer: 

Uh, well, thanks Lucas. I don't know about all that, but, um, yes, I am a psychologist and I see little peanuts around age two through, I guess all the ages, I suppose <laugh> and I do therapy, but a lot less therapy, and only with adults than I do for, I like to say comprehensive evals now instead of psychological, because in my mind, psychological doesn't really actually encompass all that I can do and we can do for testing as psychologist. So I'm trying to change the verbiage and it's comprehensive evaluation is the vast majority of what I do with. 

Christy: 

Look at you. 

Lucas: 

I like that. 

Dr. Spencer: 

You know, <laugh> trying to get with the times. 

Christy: 

I'm gonna preface by saying that Megan is one of the most brilliant psychologists I've ever worked with. 

Lucas: 

Absolutely. 

Dr. Spencer: 

No, don't, 

Lucas: 

Yeah. 

Christy: 

Yeah. We're gonna do that because it's true. She's, she's very, she's very mindful, very demure, but 

Lucas: 

Very demure. 

Christy: 

Very mindful about her testing and, and, um, and making sure that we get a full picture of all of the kids. And the reports that she writes are very comprehensive and it. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Oh, yeah. 

New Speaker: 

I mean, it covers everything. I think the first question that comes to mind just hearing you say that you test kids two to through the spectrum is I think a lot of people wouldn't even realize that you could test a 2-year-old. Like, what does that look like? 

Dr. Spencer: 

So it, it honestly looks very different for a 2-year-old or a 14-year-old, or a 30-year-old. There are some similarities that I can look at, but it, it is, when you get a report back, it's gonna look very different based on the age. And that's because one, in, in terms of assessments and what I have that I can administer to really get a, a good clinical picture, whether that's cognitive, intellectual ability, emotion, behavior, there's a lot less options that I have for little peanuts mm-hmm <affirmative>. Than I do for older adolescents or adults. But also I think the questions are gonna be very different and the, I always call it data, but like, what, you know, what others have tried or attempted previously. So it all really looks different with the ages, the assessments, and then as you know, a teen and an adult, there's just a lot more experiences that we've been through, positive and negative. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So that sometimes can change what's ordered or what we're kind of looking at in terms of the question. 

New Speaker: 

Yeah. 

Lucas: 

What sort of behaviors or what, what sort of things would I be looking for, where it would be like, maybe I should get my 2-year-old tested? 

Christy: 

Right? 'cause what is it just a 2-year-old being a 2-year-old, and when is it like, oh, my, my 2-year-old is more mortgages being a 2-year-old <laugh>. 

Dr. Spencer: 

I mean, so here's, here's kind of like what, so with little peanuts between zero and five, like, and even five and six, there's so much like growth and change and, and it's not as consistent in terms of like what you would see in a nice perfect, like, oh, here's the first step, here's the next, right. It's kind of like a ebb and flow where they might be really good at like catching balls and running, but then like their ability to hold a pen may be right, but that doesn't necessarily warrant an issue per se. Or like, all kids have meltdowns and tantrums and they get excited about things and they wanna keep playing when they're told not to. But I think when it comes to little peanuts, it's, it's, yes, it's more of the behaviors that are the questions as to why. And it's, I always go back to like, okay, kids are gonna be have behaviors, but how impactful or how interfering is it in terms of like their ability to have a successful relationship with their parents, with their siblings, with their peers? 

Dr. Spencer: 

So they might, so behavior is what some things that you might see or that I might get questions for, like, why this is happening is a lot of aggression or mm-hmm <affirmative>. So it can kind of go on both ends, right? Where you get the aggression, which can be verbal, it can be physical, um, and physical doesn't always mean like at a person. It can be like taking toys and throwing 'em down or, right. So physical and verbal don't just mean one thing. They can encompass a lot of different things, but I think when it becomes like consistent and the intensity either continues to ramp up and doesn't really get better, like meaning once you remove the issue where you try to help calm and nurture, right? It, that just isn't working. Or it more instances of the behavior showing themselves, whether it's at school, at home, or with siblings. 

Dr. Spencer: 

The other, aside from that end, can be just a complete shutdown, right? So where you might get something happens and the kid just totally shuts down, they either run to their room, they won't talk, they won't emote, right? They're not showing anything. So again, these are things that are gonna happen once in a while, but I think the issue is more a consistent basis and it's interfering with the parent's ability to have a relationship to nurture their child, to understand what they need, again, on a more consistent basis than just like once in a while. If that makes sense. 

Christy: 

Yeah, I think it's, so I'm, I'm sure you probably hear this in your office too, a lot is that usually when by the time kids get in for therapy, the parents will be like, I could tell from a really young age that something wasn't right. You know, like they, so, like, I always tell parents, you gotta trust that gut feeling. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Yes. 

New Speaker: 

Because they're, a lot of times they'll be like, I was reading books on kids with autism when they were 1-year-old. 'cause I could just tell that something, something wasn't right. And it's like, and I think that a lot of parents' concerns are dismissed early on because it's like, they're just kids. There can't be something air quotes again, wrong with them. Wrong with them when they're, when they're that young or they'll just grow out of it or that kind of thing. And I just feel like parents know, you know. 

Dr. Spencer: 

And that gut it like, okay, seriously, when I do feedback with parents or adults, I, that is literally something I say is when you get that gut feeling mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like you're in a interaction with your kid or like something happens and you just get that gut feeling of like, something is not right. Or like what just happened, that is your cue. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. That there is a mismatch of something, a mismatch of perception on the kid's point, or exactly what you just said, Christy mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like this, there is something more, this is not just air quote typical, right, right. Um, or like, man, the, you know, their older, their older brother or sister, like, they just like, yeah, there's some differences, but this is just way different in like, you know, like Yes. That you gotta trust your gut. The body tells you. Right. Most of the time, everything you need to know, you just have to listen. 

Christy: 

Yeah. And not listen to the people outside that are giving you no outside advice that don't have to live with your child or like, aren't no witnessing the 24/7 interactions that you're having because it's just, yeah. Don't listen to people who negate your feelings about your child. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Well, you're the one walking in your own shoes. You are the one that spends 24, you know, maybe not 24 hours a day 'cause of work and other things. But the parents caregivers are the ones that spend the vast majority of the time understanding, nurturing, taking care of, responding to good, bad, and ugly. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So, right. That gut is your gut and your experience. And anyone outside of that can't have those same experiences, which means Yes. Not that they're not valid or relevant, but it's your gut and your instincts as a parent or caregiver that has to drive. 

Lucas: 

Yeah. We say that all the time. The parents are the experts on their kids always. And I know that every clinician in this office feels that way. And so it's not, it's your input, your gut is really, really valuable to us. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and so 

Christy: 

If we value your, we value your guts <laugh>, 

Lucas: 

We value your guts <laugh>. Oh my Gosh. Uh, and so if, if you are having, like that's the, that's the time to start asking questions, start looking into things and testing can be a really valuable tool to help get those answers. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Absolutely. And I think like what you guys had asked first, like, should we all get testing? No, and to be honest, I think usually testing isn't the first, the first stop, if that makes sense. Like totally usually the first stop right. Is your primary care provider, pediatrician, or even like if you're an adult, like your, your regular doctor, and then they might recommend something or, Hey, I think you need to look into this. Or maybe they're, you know, they're savvy enough to go straight to like therapists. And, and people who know this stuff versus straight to a psychologist for testing. Like, that's just usually not the route. And it doesn't matter how you start the process, it's listening to the gut and having that first conversation. And usually therapy is phenomenal. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. At making huge changes that maybe then those questions of should I get tested? Should I have my kid tested, or should I get tested? Those get answered in the process of therapy mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because there is improvements and there are gains and there isn't that need to have that real in-depth look because there's questions that just aren't being answered. 

Christy: 

Right. And I think that's important to note is like, so when, 'cause I, I really do think that the mental health industry as a whole has a whole lot of perceived boundaries that people have to jump over that aren't really there. Uhhuh, <affirmative>. Um, and so if like, if you have a concern, we'll we can get in for therapy no problem. You don't need like a doctor's referral. Like you just, you just come on in and like Lucas and I can diagnose people without having psych testing. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Absolutely. Yeah. 

New Speaker: 

And I think that people don't understand that sometimes. 'cause a lot of times they can come in and we know it. You like slam dunk. Mm-hmm. We know that this person, we, we can, we can diagnose what it is. Sometimes when those things are co-occurring, that's when it gets to be like, what are we dealing with here? I gotta talk to Megan. 

Dr. Spencer: 

That's the muddiness, right? Right. And that, that's like the muddiness of the questions that come as, again, it's like, okay, we've had this, you know, pet or kiddo and ot, we've had 'em in, you know, individual therapy and yes, there's progress, but parents and providers still have questions. That, that no matter which kind of direction or way that you look at it, there continues to be question marks that just never really are understood mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then Yeah, that's a great point at which you can say, okay, maybe we need to think about doing some testing to see really what's going on and tease out some of those differences. Because you're right, there are some kiddos, adults that are, you know, I use the word straightforward and I don't like that word because people in general are just way too complex to say straightforward. But the help and the tools are exactly what they need at that time. And it, there isn't those questions Questions and the questions that we're there to begin with get understood. You know, there that insight is there that there's not even a need to look deeper for testing. 

Christy: 

Yeah, I think, I think the biggest thing for parents that, that I feel is like you get a lot of people that come in who are very hesitant to put their child on medication, for example. That's a big one. And they want to know very definitively through scientific testing, you know, is my child gonna benefit from that? From what is going on? Are we medicating the right thing? Should I medicate my, like that's a huge thing. 

Dr. Spencer: 

It is. So there's a few, you know, to speak to that piece, whether you're a kid or adult, medication is scary no matter what. It's scary for parents, it's scary for the kid, the teen, the adult. And I personally, I don't prescribe medication. I'm certainly not gonna say you should or shouldn't, but I think severity, intensity and, and the number of environments it interferes in and environments meaning. Right. School, um, social activities, home community organizations or, or sports, like when it becomes the intensity is, is very strong. Right. We have, we're having pretty significant issues across multiple environments on a consistent basis. That's right. Like here's the more severe. Now even severe doesn't necessarily automatically warrant, okay, let me have a conversation about medication. But you have to be thoughtful on what that interference is gonna do down the road to their competence, their self-esteem, their ability to engage and even desire to engage with the world and Right. 

Dr. Spencer: 

In those different things. So, you know, medication is, is something i, I frequently get asked about. And so I will always say like, the more information you have, the better. Right? Having a conversation about medication, what are the positives, what are the negatives? Doesn't ever mean you have to do it. But having that information as a parent or as an adult is gonna inform that decision that you have to make in such a better way than just automatically. Yes. Or automatically No. Is whether you're against it or for it, have the conversation with somebody like a psychiatrist, nurse practitioner, medication provider who is well versed. And that way you can have actual legitimate information in terms of which route to take. 

Christy: 

Totally. 

Dr. Spencer: 

The other part of that is with testing and ADHD specifically, A lot of kids and adults are on stimulants and so that's fine to each their own. And there is one particular measure that I can do to look at what's happening with that executive functioning when they're on their medication and when they're off of it. So we can get kind of a beautiful comparison, right? Kind of the baseline, what's happening when we're just baseline no medication that's supposed to help with executive functioning and then with it, and we can compare that to see, right. Is there effectiveness, is there a therapeutic benefit? Is there not? And what's happening now that again those, I I say this a lot is that doesn't equal anything or warrant anything, but it's the information, it's the data. Mm-hmm. That is what is as is important to understand versus a cause or an equal. 

Christy: 

Yeah. I think ADH ADHD is the, the biggest one that we see because they're like, is my kid just being a kid or is there something there's is there something pathological that's happening. Oh, so this is actually a good question 'cause it's mine. 

Lucas: 

Right. 

New Speaker: 

Um, and I'm just, 

Lucas: 

I'm glad you caught that. I was about to call you out on it. 

New Speaker: 

so full of good questions. But we get a lot of people that come in and they, they wanna be just tested for a DHD. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Yes. And so like that is a, that is a, so here's, I'll give you the explanation that I can possibly give without being too long-winded. 

Christy: 

<laugh>, good luck ladies and gentlemen. This is Dr. Spencer. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Yeah.<Laugh>. Um, okay. So honestly like that though, that is a valid question and it is a valid thing to ask about. The problem is you have to take like 10 steps back because when it comes to ADHD, there is so many overlapping symptoms mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it is not as straightforward as it might seem when you Google what ADHD symptoms are. Right? 

Christy: 

Totally. 

Dr. Spencer: 

But when it comes to kiddos, yes, there is a lot of overlap, but there is a lot of different history that is relevant and can present with similar symptoms like adhd mm-hmm <affirmative>. So when we think of trauma, right? I always explain trauma isn't just what immediately comes to your mind when we think of trauma, right? Like abuse trauma can be medical, right? Whether it's surgeries on the, the individual themselves, or a sibling or a family member. It can be natural disasters, it can be right. It can be a fire in the house, it can be their next door neighbor's house was set on fire. Right? We have to think about trauma, not in the sense of combat war or abuse, that this encompasses so much more. Um, and we also know through research that in utero, the fetus still experiences what we can think of as trauma mm-hmm <affirmative>. 

Dr. Spencer: 

And so trauma produces or displays itself behaviorally in a lot of ways that can look like ADHD, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. But then there's other things like OCD, like motor, persistent motor or vocal ticks that have nothing to do with ADHD. But again, because of that outward presentation and because kiddos don't have the verbiage, they don't have the abstract understanding to put words to feelings and thoughts that it mostly always comes out in behaviors that can just be all over the place. And that's why it's so important to say, to not just look at one thing, because in my opinion, then for me, I'm not doing my job 'cause it could, right? It could very well be ADHD. Totally. But it could be in such a different realm that if, if I don't do the comprehensive look in my mind, not only am I doing a disservice to my profession and to that family, but I then in my mind am I'm sending that kid and that family down a road that is completely inaccurate. And is gonna, who knows, probably do more harm than good. And that is the exact opposite that any of us in this profession wanna do. 

New Speaker: 

Right? 

Lucas: 

Yeah. So, uh, hypothetically I get referred to testing. Maybe Christy wants me to get tested. 

Christy: 

Oh, I have for years. <laugh> <laugh>. 

Lucas: 

No. Uh, and so. 

Christy: 

Megan says not everybody has to be tested. 

Lucas: 

Exactly. Okay. So what I know that every psychologist has their own, uh, way of doing things, their own system, if you will. And so, but like in general, for somebody who's maybe considering testing or has been referred to testing, what, what should I expect? 

Dr. Spencer: 

So for me, like first anyone who calls in and is interested in testing, whether they're kiddo or an adult, they do what, like an initial questionnaire. So if they're under 18, it's a family history questionnaire that the parents or caregiver does if they're older and it's adult history questionnaire. And that goes through, um, some really important, important kind of like check marks in my mind that I have the opportunity to look through that so it can, because if you think about what the DSM there is like hundreds and hundreds, or I don't even know 'cause I'm not counting, but like maybe thousands, I don't know, <laugh> of different diagnoses and disorders that my brain can head down in terms of like pathways. And so that's, that history questionnaire is for, for DFS is gonna be the first thing everyone has to complete. Um, and that gives me my first indication of the complexity of the individual's history, the complexity of what I'm gonna need to ask about to dig into, and the complexity in terms of what I might need to order for tests to, to really get a beautiful comprehensive picture. And that then asks about some medical stuff, some, some adverse experiences, history, background, some development. And that then dictates kind of, okay, so then they've got that. Then usually, well, not usually always, they'll come in for a diagnostic assessment or interview, and that's always scheduled for an hour and a half. But if you know me, I don't follow rules very well in that sense. 

Christy: 

<laugh>. What? 

Lucas: 

It's a buckle. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Yeah. As I roll my eyes at myself. Um, but I try to, like, I try to balance time with information and for me, information is more important than time. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so unfortunately 90% of the time I always go over whether it's the initial diagnostic or the feedback, um, 

Christy: 

Because we're being comprehensive. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Yes, exactly. And like, and, and really like, and so I'll ask people like families, they'll be like, all right, do you have a, do you have a place? You gotta be like right after because I already know chances are I'm just going to be rolling and going past. And, and, and I tell people like, look like this might be frustrating. I'm gonna ask some of the same questions you've probably been asked about yourself or your kid. But I have to do it because I'm gonna do it in the way that I need to so that I can get the information to really inform what I need to know to move forward. So there's always the initial diagnostic, which forgive me, if you come in and see me, it's gonna probably be longer than what you're scheduled for or just an FYI. And then it's really ordering, testing and that, and testing. It's not like little kids, when I say that word and they're in the office with me, it's like, Ooh, these, you know, the eyes get big. And I'm like, no, I promise bud. Like, I'm not sticking needles in you. We're not poking prodding. I'm not doing any weird stuff. 

Christy: 

Some of our kind of fun actually. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Right? Yeah. And you get to work with Caitlin for most of them, but aside from one will always.. 

Christy: 

Who is Caitlin? 

Dr. Spencer: 

Oh, <Laugh>. Caitlin is my, so a funny thing now. I call her my hip when I talk to families because, so I'll explain. So Caitlin is a psychometrist. Nobody knows what that is for the most part. Uhhuh you can't go to school for. But she has been trained by myself and, uh, Dr. Baczynski, who's the residential psychologist who administer the assessments that are appropriate. She's not making any, you know, clinical judgment. She's not diagnosing. It's nothing like that. But why I call her my hip is that people can function without hips, but not very well. So Caitlin is like my hip and I need her to function well 'cause she is phenomenal and does great with kids. And so you'll see her for a lot of the actual like assessment, whether you're a kid or an adult. But, and then there's only one in particular that I administer and, and she does not. But other than that you'll meet with Caitlin. 

Christy: 

Which one is that? 

Dr. Spencer: 

The Ados. Oh, so that's the spec. So it's, it's technically the gold standard for diagnosing autism spectrum. Because it is geared towards the different areas of dysfunction that are typically seen in whether you're a kiddo or an adult with autism. 

Christy: 

Yep. Makes sense. 

Lucas: 

Yeah. There you go. 

New Speaker: 

So then they go through all these tests with Caitlin. Which, I mean, depending on, and I shouldn't say this, but like, depending on the capability of the person to sit in a room for very long, it can. I mean, it can, you're not gonna sit down and do all of your testing in one <laugh>. Megan's face is hilarious right now. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Oh my gosh. No. And, and like seriously, and this is what I love about Caitlin is 'cause she's super chill and flexible, but, 

Christy: 

And everybody who sees Caitlin loves her. 

Lucas: 

Absolutely. 

Dr. Spencer: 

I know. Seriously. 

New Speaker: 

She's so great. She love... 

Lucas: 

Nothing but good things to say 

Christy: 

Yes, she's awesome. 

Dr. Spencer: 

I know. 

New Speaker: 

Which I was, pardon harding herself, <laugh>, way to go Megan. 

Dr. Spencer: 

I threw myself on the back of that. Um, but needless to say, like, so when they're little peanuts and what I tell people is whether you're like five or 60, our brains kind of shut down after a certain amount of time. Like that's just typical mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so if they're little peanuts, we do multiple appointments depending on the need and, and the situation of the kiddo, they get breaks. We have snacks. Caitlin's office is super fun. And it, I tell them it's even more fun than my office. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And usually it's, it's more about meeting the need of the kiddo or the of the person. Like some adults will come here and they'll knock it out in a full day. 

Christy: 

Yeah. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Cool. Like, if that's your cup of tea, awesome. Roll with it. But if that's not, and you need, you know, three appointments for two hours, cool. 

Christy: 

If you think that you might have ADHD, let's maybe not do the full day, you know, <laugh>. 

Dr. Spencer: 

You know, it's quite interesting. Yeah. 

Lucas: 

That'd be horrible. 

Christy: 

That seems like a really bad idea. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Yeah. No. And they'll get like a break for lunch, like an hour for lunch and then they'll be back. And I, I like, I personally could never do that, but to each their own. And like, if that's how you wanna roll with it, by all means that helps us. But 

Lucas: 

How do you involve like the, like external people that are involved in their lives? 

Dr. Spencer: 

Uh, yes, observation. 

Christy: 

Ooh, good question. 

Dr. Spencer: 

That is a good question. 

Lucas: 

Thank you. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Yes. Observations. And that can be, shesh can be about anything. So usually when someone comes in, again, this is adults or kiddos, um, I usually like to get others' perspectives. And so what I explain is like no one perspective or no one observation is gonna dictate anything, but it's the whole picture that informs. Right. And so it's nice for me to have other perspectives because one, they're seeing the kid in different environments. So whether it's teachers, grandparents, honestly, like about half the time moms and dads or caregivers, like foster parents will wanna each do one separate because one will be like, ah, he totally sees things differently than I do. And that's awesome. Like there is no right or wrong. And that's why I say I will never assume, I'm just gonna ask you whether you want separate or together or like teachers sometimes, uh, the therapist. You guys do a lot. 

Christy: 

Comprehensive 

Dr. Spencer: 

Girl. Yes 

Lucas: 

Wow. 

Dr. Spencer: 

But that's just, it is you like that is part of the comprehensive piece, right? Is like therapists or OTs all send stuff to sometimes speech, you know, speech and language pathologists. Yeah. Grandparents, sometimes daycare providers. Right. It, there isn't a right or wrong. Again, it's just getting, but the caveat is that is you want enough but not too much to make the water even more muddy. If that makes sense. So usually I'll end up with like 2, 2 5. And usually after that week it just gets too muddy. 

Christy: 

Yeah, no, that makes sense. And some of them are, some of them are not as long as the other, some of some of them are. But I think it, it can be overwhelming to people who aren't used to filling out psychological testing because it's like, oh my God, I'm filling out a psychological testing questionnaire. Um, so what is it, what's your advice to people if they have to fill one out? 'cause I do think in my experience and maybe a little personal experience, you tend to overthink it a little bit. But some of those tests are like, they have some things built in, right? Like control. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Yes. All of them. Control that have built in like Yes. Con I like the word control. Like they have built in controls, right? Because one, like what a question that I ask you today, you might respond somewhat differently tomorrow. Right? And that goes for no matter who you are or what age you are. So yes, there are some built in controls, but I think one is exactly what you said is remind yourself before you start to not overthink 'cause that's exactly what will happen. And what should take you 20 minutes is gonna take you 40 minutes and add frustration. So Right. It's read the statement, just answer right away. Don't try to overthink or like, oh, well if it's this environment or if they're with it, Nope. Just answer it. Respond, move on. 

Lucas: 

I get a lot of people who are like, they ask me the same question 15 different ways. It was so annoying. Why do, why, why does a test do that? 

Christy: 

They're, because they're trying to trick you. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Um, there are what's called the validity indicators mm-hmm <affirmative>. And when I do feedback again with families, kids, adults, I explain when I go through each measure, like, okay, there's what's specifically on some of them, well not all of 'em have what's called validity indicators, but basically it's exactly that is it is telling me how genuine they were responding to certain questions. So the goal is that if you're paying attention and you're reading each statement and being thoughtful and genuine, that even if we're asking the same question in a different way, more times than not, you're gonna respond in the same way to the same question, asking the same type of thing. 

Christy: 

When I'm doing them, I know what's in there and I, and I'm like, Ooh, I know this one's testing me to see if I remember what i did the next. And like, I can't re I'm like, I hope it's the same. I hope it's the same. So I don't look like I'm a ... 

Lucas: 

Do you think you're anxious? 

Christy: 

Shut up. <laugh>. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Okay, I I believe that probably everyone who gets those observation forms and opens that link probably gets anxious. 

Christy: 

Oh yeah. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Well, and I think for me it's because I, I take it very seriously. I mean, I, I take everybody's mental health very seriously. But like, especially when we're coming to diagnosing and doing testing and, and like you said before, like this alters the road for people. You know, is, is it, is it anxiety? Is it ADHD? Is it both? Like, you don't wanna medicate somebody for ADHD when it's anxiety. I don't wanna treat somebody for anxiety when it's ADHD. And so it, like, it, there is, there is a weight of importance to make sure that you're doing the best work for the people we serve. And we're all very conscientious about that in general. And so it's like, okay, I do not want to mess this up <laugh>. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Okay. But also that's a lot of pressure and probably too much pressure, like, yes. Like, it's Right, it's all about balance. Like, yes, you wanna take it serious and not just like, be watching your favorite movie while you're clicking on random answers. Right. But like, also, I know it's easier said than done, but like Right. It's that don't overthink it and don't get like that again. Remember that one thing, even if you mess it up, Christy isn't gonna like, isn't gonna distort or ruin anything else. 

Christy: 

I have chilled out in my old age, but I remember when I was like, when I was first starting and we, I had to fill 'em out, I was like, oh my god. And, and I now I fill 'em out all the time. So for me it's like, I, I know that, right? So I can go through and, and I, I know that, but for people that are doing it for the first time, 

Dr. Spencer: 

It's overwhelming. Yeah. 

Christy: 

And just don't, don't overthink it. 

Dr. Spencer: 

No. And take your time. Like, okay, I'm gonna do, I don't know, 20 questions and then take a bathroom break or go like, get some water and then come back to you. Right. It's not like, okay, if I open this up, I gotta sit here for <laugh>, you know, like, I gotta no like chill. Like be chill with it. Right? Like, do a couple questions, get up, move around. Like come back. 

Christy: 

Take an emotional lap. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Right? Like again, there's no, like, it has to be done in like this amount of time or like, and Caitlin will send reminders, so. 

Lucas: 

Yeah. Oh, I know. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Not that we want her to, but she's good about that. 

Christy: 

We are well aware. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Yeah. And also. 

New Speaker: 

Caitlin sends reminders, which I need. 

Lucas: 

I need thank you. 

Christy: 

You we all thank you for doing that. I, I, I appreciate it. But I'm like, sorry Caitlin 

Lucas: 

I know. I feel so bad every time I get one. I'm like, oh no, that was the third one that she's given me. 

Christy: 

Um, Oops. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Umm Okay. But also thank you for all of you lovely therapists and you two for filling those out. Oh yeah. Because I can imagine it's frustrating with helpful at the same time. 

Christy: 

I don't find them frustrating at all. 

Lucas: 

I don't find them frustrating. No. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Okay, good. I always like, part of me is always like, oh God, I'm sending these people like three. 

Christy: 

Well the thing is like, if, if you're sending it to me, I referred them to you. 

Dr. Spencer: 

I mean, fair. 

Christy: 

So, I, I want the answers. Okay. So it's like, if I get frustrated, just frustrated with myself for wanting the answers, <laugh>, but that's not, that's not helpful. 

Lucas: 

I, I think for me it's more of like, I wanna make sure that I have enough time to take it seriously and be thoughtful about it. Right. Because some of them can take some time. Um, and then when you get, like, when you get like three or four of 'em or whatever, like, and it's, 

Dr. Spencer: 

Yeah, it's a lot. 

Lucas: 

It can, it can take some time and I just wanna make sure that I'm, I'm being thoughtful about it. 

New Speaker: 

Yeah. 

Lucas: 

So yeah. 

New Speaker: 

Good for you. 

Lucas: 

It's, it's definitely not frustration. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Okay. Good. That makes me feel better. Maybe other people might have a different opinion on that, but we we're gonna roll with your two and it's not frustrating. Yeah. No. 

Christy: 

Well, I getting answers about kids specifically. 'cause I work primarily with kids. It helps everyone. 

Dr. Spencer: 

It does. 

New Speaker: 

I mean, it, it benefits the school, it benefits the teachers, it benefits me, it benefits the parents, it benefits the siblings. Like figuring out what truly is going on with that kid to taper their treatment into what is really going on in their brain is helpful for everybody. So if I gotta take 40 minutes or whatever to, to fill something out so that we can have a good lifetime, like that is nothing to me. 

Dr. Spencer: 

See that's music to my ears. 

New Speaker: 

Yeah. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Yes. 

Christy: 

Yeah. 

Dr. Spencer: 

It takes a village to raise a kid. Right. This is a saying that's existed for God only knows how long, right? And so, and that can be in different contexts, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. The village can look differently what, depending on what it is. 

Christy: 

Absolutely. And I would say our clinic in general, I mean, we're very, we collaborate a lot. Um, with each other because I think we all, we all have different strengths and whatever, but like Megan will come and meet she and she'll be like, this is what I saw in the diagnostic assessment, is this kind of where you're at. And I'll be like, ah, thank you. Validating <laugh> appreciate it. 

Dr. Spencer: 

What I wanna do. Right? 

Christy: 

Yes. So even, even though it's just the testing, like it is important to have all these people involved. 

Dr. Spencer: 

It is, yep. 

Christy: 

And it benefits everybody. 

Dr. Spencer: 

It does. And again, that also speaks to the comprehensive piece, right? It's like you need all of these voices and these people to help and support and wrap around, whether it's a kid or an adult mm-hmm <affirmative>. And you can't know what you need to help someone unless you have a nice, beautiful picture of what is going on. Yeah. 

Christy: 

Yeah. Comprehensively. 

Lucas: 

Yeah. Comprehensively. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Lucas: 

I think that, uh, one of the things I run into, especially with like teenagers or even middle school, I mean, really all kids that I see, I, I run into this, there's a bit of anxiety as they get up to like that first testing appointment. 

Christy: 

Oh yeah. I think that's adults too, honestly. 

Lucas: 

Yeah. And like, I think the biggest concern is like, can I, can I fail this? Like am I gonna, am I gonna do poorly on this test or whatever. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Yeah. That's a good point. 

New Speaker: 

So what are, what are your thoughts on that? 

Dr. Spencer: 

Honestly, you know, and that makes me think, you know, I try my best to like, whether it's a kid or adult to, to try to explain like, these aren't, so the other thing with kiddos is I'll say like, it's not like a school test. It's not like you're gonna get scored in a, a number or letter grade, whatever they have now. I think both, who knows? But, um, 

Christy: 

It's very confusing. 

Dr. Spencer: 

It is. 

Lucas: 

Every school is different. 

Dr. Spencer: 

I think that's maybe something I can even be a little more intentional about is just reminding that this isn't, it's not a graded test. We're not, it's not a pass or fail, it's not a right or wrong. It's just based on you and how you are thinking and feeling and responding for you. And not necessarily that like it's a right or wrong or you're gonna fail or, or succeed or be graded on something. 

Christy: 

It's just like a picture of how your brain works. 

Dr. Spencer: 

It is. Yes, you know. 

Christy: 

It's like if there's anything that has to do with math, I'm gonna fail it. You know? 'cause that's how my brain works. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. It's, it's no different than when you're looking at, at how your brain functions when you're talking about mental health. It's like, there's some things that you're gonna do really well at and there's some things that we maybe aren't gonna do. So s well at.. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Well, and that's what makes us human. 

Christy: 

Yeah. Absolutely. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Like, like we're supposed to have strengths and weaknesses. We're supposed to have feelings and emotions that are good, bad and ugly and neutral. Like that is the beauty of, of being human and human nature. But yeah, there's um, there's the levels in which it goes in different directions, but yes. 

Christy: 

I I think that when people think psych testing, probably because of media, right? Movies, tv, whatever. They think Rorschach Ink Blots, right? And so can you explain what that is? Because I think that that is like, that's probably the, the one test that most people think that that is what psych testing is. If you're gonna show me a picture of a butterfly, and I'm not supposed to say that it's a knife, you know, <laugh>. <laugh>, 

Dr. Spencer: 

Okay. So, 

Christy: 

So, let's destignify it. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Yes, I absolutely love the Rorschach, and more times than not I will have it administered. But what I will, what I always say again and again and again is one test equals nothing. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. It is the combination and whole picture, right? Each test is a different puzzle piece. So the diagnostic assessment that interview a puzzle piece, the, the questionnaire ahead of time, a puzzle piece, each assessment a puzzle piece, right? And so it's like all of them individually make up this beautiful Right. Actual picture like a puzzle does. You know what I mean? And so yes, it's, the Rorschach is a, is a puzzle piece, but it also is a particular measure that gives me what's called reality testing. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And there really isn't any other measure that gauges that level of reality testing. And so what reality testing is, we all have it, but it is how we, how accurate or not do we perceive what people are saying to us and what their actions mean. 

Dr. Spencer: 

And so usually when I say that, people are still kind of like, huh? Like, okay, I get it. But like, what does that mean in like lay terms mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like every day. So the Rorschach amongst other things, um, with the reality testing is, is it goes back to that gut like we were talking about. Right? Where it's like you have an interaction and you get this like complete op, like you have a response or you do something and then the kid or the adult has this total opposite reaction, right. And that's where the gut's like, what the heck just happened? Okay. That can be a very good indication of reality testing. And what that means is that that kiddo or that person isn't just trying to be difficult, but they are genuinely misperceiving in either a critical negative right, angry, harsh way that you meant maybe in a helpful right. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Kind way. But they're not registering that consciously, intuitively, emotionally. Right? They're registering it as an attack or a, a critical or, or I can't do good, or I'm not good. And so then you get that gut feeling. But like the Rorschach in that reality testing piece is one of the only measures that I can with certainty say, okay, here's an issue and then I'll give that example. And then the parent or the other, like spouse is like, like, you get this look where it's like, oh my God, that happened yesterday, <laugh>. And then I'm like, oh. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I'm talking about. And then, then you can work with it, right? If you don't know something exists, you can address it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So in that instance, I just made up what I call the re like a, like a game, right? 

Dr. Spencer: 

It's a reality testing game. So when a parent or, or your spouse or whatever it is gets that gut feeling, what I will say is like, okay, little Joey over there. Like, you're helping Joey with his math homework. And you're like, oh, wait, stop. If you, if you do it this way or this way, you think you're being helpful. And Joey's like, whoa. Like no way. I'm an idiot. I can't do it right. When that happens, do nothing. Let let little Joey go away. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Give him 5, 10, 20 minutes. Right. For the brain to calm the body to calm. Because when we're in a, in a calm state, we can process better, we can think clearer, and then go back to little Joey and say, oh man, what do you think I said? Or What do you think I meant? And when Joey's like, man, you, you think I'm an idiot and I never can do anything right. That's when you're like, oh my gosh, bud, I'm so sorry. Like, I was just trying to be helpful. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And the more times and the more situations that, that we can do that with our children, with, with whomever is having this issues over time, you will help kind of reorient those perceptions back to being more accurate versus this like, confusing walking on eggshells where one situation turned out great and then the same one the next day ended in an eruption. Right? 

Christy: 

I think you bring a a good point though. When, when, like, let's say that that happens, right? And they have this big outburst, they come back and Joey's like, well, I heard you say this. The thing to not say is you're wrong. I didn't mean that, you know, <laugh>. 

Dr. Spencer: 

No, no. 

Christy: 

Because like, your, your example was beautiful where you're like, I am sorry, that is not what I intended. But I think a lot of times they're like, I did not say it that way. 

Dr. Spencer: 

You're exactly right. Yes. 

Christy: 

You are. You did not hear me correctly and, and making it their fault when their reality is their reality. 

Dr. Spencer: 

And it's no one's fault 

Christy: 

It's no one's fault. It's just, uh, their perceptions. Their perception. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Exactly. And without knowing that you can't address it and you can't gain insight. Right. So like if I never did the Rorschach mm-hmm <affirmative>. I would never have that vital information to have that very ba like, just like I did with the little Joey example. I can't have that conversation and help them unless I have that data. 

Christy: 

Absolutely. 

Dr. Spencer: 

And that data specifically comes from the Rorschach, but the Rorschach also adds these beautiful pieces that's called information processing that lets me know that can be consistent with or not some of that executive functioning issues mm-hmm <affirmative>. Which can relate to a few other things, not just ADHD, but there are pieces embedded within the Rorschach that very much can continue that beautiful consistent picture mm-hmm <affirmative>. Aside from that reality testing piece. 

Lucas: 

Yeah, I mean, 

Christy: 

So you're not just, not just seeing if they're a serial killer. 

Dr. Spencer: 

No. <laugh>. 

Christy: 

Okay. <laugh> 

Lucas: 

In your really good example was, I mean, that's the difference between thinking that something is just not firing correctly in the brain versus my kids gaslighting me. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Yes, or like they're doing it on purpose. 

Lucas: 

Yeah. Yeah, that's a big, that's a big difference. 

Dr. Spencer: 

It's a huge shift in, in how you view behavior, especially for that parent or caregiver. 

Christy: 

Yeah. And you get a lot of parents that are like, I think they're lying to me, <laugh>. 

Lucas: 

Right? Yeah. All the time. 

Christy: 

And it's like, I, I don't know that they're consistently lying to you all the time. I think that this is just their reality versus your reality and, and that they are very different. 

Dr. Spencer: 

And think about it, if, if I didn't have the Rorschach and I was just like, well, I think this is what it is, but when I have data and it's in front of the parents or their caregiver or the spouse, and it's like, no, this is what it's saying. And yes, to some degree there is a level of interpretation, but like, I can't even have that data and that conversation or even the knowledge to want to have that conversation without the information. 

Lucas: 

Yeah. So then with, you've talked about at the beginning about like a feedback session and what, so I'm curious what that is, um, just for everybody else. And also I'd be curious if you have any advice for, 'cause we, I mean, people do get access to their psych testing, right? 

Dr. Spencer: 

Yep. 

Lucas: 

And it's, there's a lot of really big words. 

Christy: 

Really big words, 

Lucas: 

And a lot of, I mean, all the testing results are in there and there's lots of numbers and just, just a whole bunch of information. And so, and it's, to be honest, it's not always super positive <laugh>, right? 

Christy: 

<laugh> No. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Usually there's more not so great. Yep. 

Lucas: 

Right? Like, we're finding what's going wrong. Um, and so what is your advice for somebody who's maybe not clinically trained reading this information about themselves or about their kid? Or just Yeah. Take it away. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Good question. Honestly, seriously, that is because that is something like every time I'm in a feedback, again, whether it's like parent caregiver or adult, I will always, I try my best that before I sit down with someone that they've had at least a couple weeks to digest. And then they'll come into my office and I'll, I'll ask, right? Like, okay, did you get the report? And they'll be like, yeah. And I tried to read through it, but I don't even think I understood any of it. And I'm like, well, congratulations. You are like everybody else. Um, because honestly, you are not meant to understand everything. And I explained that like, the reason that I put so much of it in there is one, I give the verbal and I give the visual table. I can't know how one likes data or information, but also once these reports are released, I never know what, where they're gonna go or who's gonna see him. 

Dr. Spencer: 

And so I wanna make sure that if, if that kid or work person is trying to get help, whether it's through state or other types of services, that it is not, they won't be denied because I didn't do my job. Right. And so, like, that is why there is so much in there is because whether it's another psychologist or a viewer or someone, whether insurance companies, any of that, they cannot come back and say, this is not a legitimate ballot. It's missing A, B, or C mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so you aren't meant to understand every part of it because it is not meant every part for you as the individual to understand it, that there are pieces, and I explain that in feedback, is I can't know. So I need to make sure that I'm covering all my bases and that you are not gonna have issues because I didn't do my job right. 

Christy: 

Yeah. I've, one of the, one of the biggest bonuses that I see from people when they do psych testing either for themselves or for their kids, is that there is a level of feeling validated. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Absolutely. 

Christy: 

When you get a diagnosis that's like, oh my gosh, that's what it is. Okay. Okay 

Dr. Spencer: 

Yes. 

Christy: 

We can, we can deal with it. Name it to tame it, right? Like there, most of the time people are very thankful. I find. 

Dr. Spencer: 

It is validating. 

Christy: 

Get to get a diagnosis, be like, oh my gosh, this is what it is. And then conversely, sometimes with parents, I also get a ting of guilt sometimes. If they've been trying to force a square peg into a round hole with their kid, how would you deal with those kind of feelings maybe that parents would have about feeling guilty that they didn't catch it right away? Because they're not psychologists <laugh>. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Okay. And that is also very common too. And I, like, I go back to like as parents, as caregivers, we wanna do the best that we can and we can only do the best that we can with what we know at that time. And hindsight is always 2020. Right. And so you get this 25, 30, 40 page report and you're like, oh my God, why didn't I get them in sooner? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or why didn't I address this before? But you can't know what you don't know. And it also goes back to that gut. Listen to your gut. Listen, don't. Right. There's always noise coming from the outside, whether it's teachers, family members mm-hmm <affirmative>. Friends. Right. There's all of that noise, which is relevant but not as relevant as your voice in your gut. So, yes, it's, it's overwhelming and it's exhausting. And it's daunting, but like, but you did it. And that's what I try to focus on is like, look, sure, all of us could go back and say, man, I wish I would've had this service or this therapy earlier, but guess what? You can't go back and you're doing it now. And that's what matters. <laugh>. 

Christy: 

I had, I had a kid who it was very high achieving and went through high school. It just wasn't challenging for him. 'cause he was really smart, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Gets into college and it's more challenging. And the kid had ADHD, but his whole life, everybody made fun of him 'cause he was so forgetful. Like it was the family joke that he was, that he was forgetful all the time. And they were like, oh, it was actually diagnosable <laugh>. It was, it wasn't. So then they were like, should we feel guilty for like, having made fun of him his whole life for being forgetful? It's like, no, that doesn't mean. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Just validate. 

Christy: 

Yeah. Just validate. It's like, oh yeah. It turns out he was forgetful, 

Dr. Spencer: 

Uhhuh and it was legit reason. 

Christy: 

Yeah. <laugh>. 

Lucas: 

Yeah, <laugh>. So, okay. We, we get referred for testing, we make the decision to go for it. And what, what's, what do we do? 

Dr. Spencer: 

So then, right, you fill out the questionnaire, you get in front of me, I ask you a whole bunch of questions, then you meet with Caitlin and or myself. Then you wait. And you wait. 

Lucas: 

Is there, should we, should they just call the front desk you think? Like, is that.. 

Dr. Spencer: 

So here's usually, 

Lucas: 

Or like DFS? 

Dr. Spencer: 

Usually what happens. 

Lucas: 

First step <laugh>? 

Dr. Spencer: 

I, I try, I try to be like thoughtful in explaining like, okay, so like it's gonna be at least a week from after you see me before they call, because we like to do insurance pre-auths, and that's not to make your life more difficult, but we don't like surprises. Neither does anybody else like surprises financially. So it's usually about a week. Then the front desk will call to set up the testing appointments. And then I try to explain like the observations will not be sent out until you come in for your first testing appointment. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So that tends to be a very common question is like, um, like a few weeks later people will call and be like, well, I haven't got an observation. And it's like, you're right, because you haven't been in for testing mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and, and <laugh> fair. And, And I think. 

Lucas: 

Good point. 

Dr. Spencer: 

And to the, to to other people's benefit, I give a lot of information. So I can't expect everyone to remember everything. But the overall thing is, after you meet with me, it's about a week to get called to get testing set up. Nobody's gonna get an observation until you child or person is physically in the building for a testing appointment. Then that kind of prompts Caitlin, Psychometrist, to send everything out. And the process does take some time. And that is dependent on, you know, individuals flexibilities. And, and obviously I'm the only one that can do the report. So if for some reason I'm out or it's a holiday, then everything sort of just sits. And I try to explain that it's about a six to eight week turnaround for the actual report. And that's not from when they're in front of me for the diagnostic, but when all testing and observations are in. 

Dr. Spencer: 

And so I also try to explain that at the same time saying, as a parent myself, I understand you're gonna get frustrated mm-hmm <affirmative>. With, with waiting because I would too. And I say that but what I then also say is, when you get the report, you won't understand why it took the time that it did, because I will never hurry. I will never hurry because it's this, that or the other thing. Or because I was sick for a week and now I need to scramble, I will not hurry through anybody's reports. And, and that is a, a genuine, honest answer is I will not hurry. So it takes time and it is a lot of information that I need to process and think through. Right. And so it just is what it is and yes, it's annoying and yes, it's frustrating, but I promise when you get the report, it, it will make sense why it takes so much time. And aside from what the testing does, I try to give as much like recommendations and like, okay, you did all this work, now what? Okay. So here's like three, four pages, sometimes more than that of just everything that I think could be helpful. Not that it all will be or that it hasn't or has been tried mm-hmm <affirmative>. But I wanna give everything I possibly can because again, the more information we have, the better we can operate. 

Christy: 

Right. I've, uh, I've read approximately 9,000 psych reports and I still, to this day, I skip to results in conclusion. 

Dr. Spencer: 

That's very common. 

Christy: 

Yeah. Because that is, that is, I get all the information that I need really as a provider in those two things. And so if you're, if you get one of those reports and you're like, blah, blah. Like that's what it looks like. It looks like gobley goop. A lot of it does. Just skip to the results and conclusions. 'cause that's really what you need to know. And then you, you have recommendations. Recommendations that are on there if those three things. You're solid. 

Dr. Spencer: 

I mean, honestly, that's just it. Like the other stuff. Yeah. Makes sense for other purposes, but like the nuts of it, right? Like the heart of what it is, is, is the recommendations. Right. Diagnoses are helpful, but, and I, part of it too is not going into like, I'm not going into saying Yep, I have to diagnose. Usually I do because there's something there and people don't come in for an evaluation unless there are some issues. <laugh>, <laugh> But the diagnosis helps inform, but it is not indicative, if that makes sense. Like how, and, and I say like this is a point in time, like there are certain diagnoses that we aren't gonna grow out of, but they're gonna improve and there's gonna be an ebb and flow and that just has to be understood. 

Lucas: 

Thank you so much for coming. This has been so fun. 

Christy: 

This was a delight. 

Lucas: 

This is the best. She 

Christy: 

She had to do all the work this time. 

Lucas: 

You're coming back. 

Dr. Spencer: 

No, I love It. No, 

Lucas: 

I'm not asking I tell Yeah. 

Dr. Spencer: 

Yeah, okay, and honestly, I'll come back as it's video, not audio. Or I mean, no, it's audio not video. 

Christy: 

Oh, she said it. She said it. 

Lucas: 

That's recorded. 

Christy: 

She wants wants she wants to. She wants to be on video. 

Dr. Spencer: 

No, no. 

Christy: 

Doug has it. 

Dr. Spencer: 

That's the Freudian slip. I mean nothing about. 

Christy: 

Doug's. Got it. <laugh>. 

Lucas: 

It is. It's forever. 

Christy: 

It's on audio. Okay. Yeah. But no, this was great. Thank you. 

Dr. Spencer: 

I appreciate you guys too for having me. 

Lucas: 

We always want to encourage you to ask the question, is it just me? You're likely not alone. And there's always a way to help. If anything we've talked about today resonates with you, please reach out. 

Christy: 

Do you have a topic you'd like us to talk about? Message us. We'd love to hear from you. We are Baha, isitjustme@dakotaranch.org? You can text us, you can DM us, you can carrier pigeon, um, morse code. 

Lucas: 

Sure. 

Christy: 

Any way that you can get in touch with us. We wanna hear your ideas and what you wanna hear from us. 

Lucas: 

And don't forget to share us with your friends and family. 

Announcer: 

Thanks for listening to today's episode of Is It Just Me? To learn more or make an appointment for psychiatric or mental health services at Dakota Family Services, go to dakotafamilyservices.org or call 1 800 2 0 1 64 95. 

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