About the Hosts

Christy Wilkie provides therapy for children and adolescents, ages 5-25, who have complex behavioral health issues. She combines her extensive clinical expertise with a belief in kids, and has a unique ability to find and develop their strengths. She works hard to be an ideal therapist for her clients, doing what is best to fit their needs.

Lucas Mitzel provides therapy for children, adolescents, and adults, ages 5 - 30. He believes building relationships with clients is the most important piece of successful therapy. He loves what he does because it allows him to walk next to people he would never have met had he chosen a different profession, as they work to make amazing life changes. He has the honor of meeting people at their worst, all while watching them grow into the people they’ve always wanted to be.

Transcript
Understanding Borderline Personality Disorder

Featuring Christy Wilkie, LCSW, and Lucas Mitzel, LCSW, Dakota Family Services

Announcer:

This episode of, Is It Just Me, is brought to you by Dakota Family Services, your trusted partner in mental and behavioral health, whether you need in-person or virtual care. The team of professionals at Dakota Family Services is dedicated to supporting children, adolescents, and adults in their journey to better mental health.

Christy:

Disrupting life patterns and life routines that aren't serving you.

Lucas:

It's how we feel that keeps us going.

Christy:

You can be a masterpiece and a work of art all at the same time.

Lucas:

Hey everyone, I'm Lucas.

Christy:

And I'm Christy.

Lucas:

And you're listening to the, Is It Just Me podcast.

Christy:

Where we aim to provide education, decrease the stigma and expel some myths around mental health.

Lucas:

Cristy, is it just me or are personality disorders really misunderstood?

Christy:

I think they are really misunderstood. I <laugh> because I think especially in the age of TikTok in the age of social media, I think it's very easy for people to be like, well, we talked about this a little bit on a narcissistic podcast, um, where it's like everybody's a narcissist. And I feel like the other big one right now is I have borderline personality disorder.

Lucas:

It's everywhere.

Christy:

BPD I have BPD, my cousin has BPD, my aunt and my mom must have bp. Everybody must have BPD.

Lucas:

I must have BPD.

Christy:

Exactly. Or do I have B? Do you think I have? Yeah. It's everywhere.

Lucas:

It's everywhere. And I think, I don't have any statistics on this, but I,

Christy:

Hold on.

Lucas:

I know.

Christy:

What?

Lucas:

It's weird. I don't have any, because I don't know how you would even, I don't know how you'd even find statistics on this, but it, it feels like it's one of the most talked about

Christy:

Oh, yeah. I trust your feeling. That's basically science.

Lucas:

Yeah I, wow. <laugh> My feelings are basically science,

Christy:

Kind of.

Lucas:

That's a dangerous statement.

Christy:

That true. Yeah.

Lucas:

That's okay. So what, like, we talk about BPD a lot. You and I, we meet with a lot of people mm-hmm <affirmative>. Who have that diagnosis or who think they have that dagnosis, or think that their kids have di diagnosis and whatever. We talk borderline personality disorder a lot. So what is it all the time?

Christy:

Well, it's, it's a lot of things, but it is characterized by having insecure relationships, not having a very good perception of reality. A a lot of times there's aggressive outbursts. There's what people would say is like, Hmm. I think what it's perceived as manipulation with kind of putting themselves in the victim role and wanting attention and that kind of thing. Yeah. What am I missing?

Lucas:

Frantic efforts to avoid abandonment.

Christy:

Yes. That's the big one.

Lucas:

And it's specific to real or perceived abandonment. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. It doesn't have to be even just like they were actually abandoned. Abandonment is a huge trigger in general for people with borderline personality disorder. So much so that oftentimes it will, people will often push others away. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. To, because it's easier to leave somebody than to be left. So they might, if they feel like things are getting really close, or like the relationship's going really well, they might get scared that it's gonna end. Because oftentimes people with borderline personality disorder, like you said, have a really hard time keeping and maintaining relationships. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So, or they have a history of relationships ending oftentimes aggressively <laugh>, if you will.

Christy:

That's a nice way to put it.

Lucas:

Yeah. And so to protect themselves, they will push others away mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and kind of keep that wall up.

Christy:

Right. There's one of the best books I think was written on BPD, and they've, I think were, they're on, there's several additions of it. Yeah. Um, they keep updating it, but I Hate You Don't Leave Me. Which is really good one, which is the very push, the big push and pull of people with BPD, who they're scared of you leaving and they're scared of you staying. And so, like, what do you do to do that? And so sometimes the way that they make people stay would be through suicidal ideation or self harm, or saying that they're in this really bad place and they need you. And so that like as if, if they need you, then you won't leave them. It's exhausting.

Lucas:

It's very exhausting.

Christy:

To be in a relationship with somebody. Any kind of relationship with somebody that's got borderline personality disorder.

Lucas:

Yeah. I, they oftentimes the relationships will look, it'll, it'll be like, when it's really good, it's like perfect and wonderful and everything's amazing. And then when it's really bad, it's, I hate this person. I don't want anything to do with them. They're dead to me. But it, there's really not a whole lot of in-between mm-hmm <affirmative>. In fact, the in-between is kind of scary. We have conversations with people who have this diagnosis all the time. It's okay to be okay. It doesn't have to be perfect, and it doesn't have to be chaos all the time. But oftentimes that's where they're most comfortable is in those extremes. And so we try to find, help them, I'm getting ahead of myself. Shocker. But <laugh>, it's, we're, when we, when we treat this, we're trying to help them get out of those extremes. And it's okay to be somewhere in the middle. In fact, that's where we want to be.

Christy:

Gray. Gray is a good place to be, which is a hard place to find a lot of the time. But I think it's with personality disorders in general, I feel like I'm probably getting ahead of here too, but I feel like they don't get the same sort of empathy that like, anxiety, depression, ptsd, That they get, 'cause it 'cause it feels like something they should just be able to control. You know, and it's not, it's so, like when I said before, it's like it's perceived as manipulation. It's not, they're not manipulating you. Like they're, they are trying to get their needs met in the way that they know how. Does it come across that way? Yes. Does it, if you're looking at it from the outside, does it look like it's a completely toxic relationship? Yeah. <laugh> it probably does. But they have to figure out what it is that's going on and how they can work with what they got.

Lucas:

Right. Oftentimes those behaviors are, are labeled as attention seeking. We hear that all the time.

Christy:

All the time.

Lucas:

A better way to look at any sort of attention seeking, this isn't just with BPD, but it, it's connection seeking or relationship seeking. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And that's really what this is. When you look at it that way, we can attack or confront the, the root of the issue here, which is that there's a relationship disturbance going on mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or some sort of instability happening, which is scary, and they're trying to cope with that in a maladaptive way. Which, which just I think provides a lot more empathy for people and just helps people move past this whole idea that it's just for attention seeking mm-hmm <affirmative>. As if that makes the, the symptoms or what they're going through less. Than what it is.

Christy:

And they're not gonna respond to typical interventions that would work for people who don't have BPD, like. You can't just be like, you need to say hi to this person, or you need like, basic social skills. That's not what we're talking about here 'cause a lot of times you can, you can tell people that's not nice when you do that, and this is how that makes them feel. That's not, they're not gonna respond to that 'cause their brains don't work that way. And so it comes across very different. I I say this to people all of the time, <laugh> when they come in, and sometimes they'll talk about a loved one or a child or a client. If I'm doing clinical supervision, that is just exhausting them. And my first go-to is let's go through the criteria for BPD. Because that's, if you're feeling like exhausted by somebody, a lot of times that's maybe what you're dealing with.

Lucas:

<affirmative>, it's a good sign. <laugh>. Um, and if you feel like there's a lot of, as if you're tempted to say like, oh, they're just so attention seeking all the time, or they're super manipulative mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or things like that. Those could be some warning signs that that's maybe coming out.

Christy:

Self-harm. Self-harm is a big one.

Lucas:

Yep. Self harm and suicidal ideation. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Is often associated with BPD.

Christy:

Because you can't leave me if I, if I want to die.

Lucas:

Right. It's a way to keep people around. Obviously super unhealthy. <laugh> <laugh>.

Christy:

Right. Thanks. Tips.

Lucas:

But it's also not their fault. These are thought processes that have developed through oftentimes lots of trauma mm-hmm <affirmative>. That's gone on, um, many times. People who grew up with narcissistic and abusive parents mm-hmm <affirmative>. Develop a borderline personality disorder as a means to cope with the lack of support and the lack of love that they might have received. And so, borderline personality disorder, my favorite way to look at it is just a, a grouping of maladaptive coping skills. That have become kind of like who you are now. And so we're just trying to figure out ways to manage those things in a more healthy way. So that you're not experiencing all these things. And so you can get to a point with BPD where you've done enough treatment where you don't necessarily meet criteria for it anymore. Which is really cool. Because you, you can't do that with a lot of personality disorders.

Christy:

No, no. But this one you can. I think also a big part of borderline personality disorder is a lack of identity. They just become, whoever they're around, whoever's giving them attention, all of a sudden they've never, they've never fished before in their life. And all of a sudden the person that they like is fishing. So now they love fishing. Fishing's my favorite, one of the biggest ones that happens with this is sports teams. And it drives me nuts, <laugh> only because I am a full fledged Vikings fan. I think I have a certificate. I don't, but I should.

Lucas:

You should.

Christy:

I should be certified as Nike said.

Lucas:

You should be in the stadium probably.

Christy:

Right.

Lucas:

Just the Wilkie name.

Christy:

Yes. Thank you. But you get these people that go into relationships and all of a sudden, like they're in a relationship with someone who's a, I'm not gonna use the team that shall not be named. But let's just say the Browns, 'cause that's, fine. They get into a relationship with the Browns fan and all of a sudden they love football and they're a Browns fan and they've got the jersey and whatever. And it's like, find, find your team <laugh>. Like, you don't have to take on the characteristics of everybody around you, but that's kind of what they do. And so it looks like they're just a different person all of the time, depending on who they're with.

Lucas:

Right. That can be anywhere from something as, let's say, uh, benign as a sports team, but also something as, um, more complex as even like sexuality or, or gender identity as well.

Christy:

Absolutely.

Lucas:

And you'll oftentimes it's, it's not somebody who isn't struggling with an identity issue. They're going to be like, I am gay. And, but that never changes. Right. Whereas somebody with a borderline personality disorder, they're gonna be like flip-flopping. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. A lot more. Between things, depending on maybe who they're around. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or, and that's not to say that they aren't or that they're lying. But they just don't know. And they're just really, it's, they're more confused About those things.

Christy:

Who they think people want them to be. Yeah. What makes them more desirable. What's gonna get somebody to stick around to be with them? Who do I have to be in order to make you stay here so I don't have to deal with leaving you? 'cause abandonment suck.

Lucas:

It does. Especially for somebody who has gone through a lot of it in their life.

Christy:

Yeah.

Lucas:

It's huge. It's a huge trigger.

Christy:

And I think borderline personality disorder also is one where like, yes, trauma actually can cause a personality disorder. That's not to say that there still isn't a genetic component. You're more likely to have borderline personality disorder if you have a brother or a mom or somebody in your, in your life that's also done that been there, has that mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Lucas:

Yeah. Another thing that can happen is oftentimes, and this is all within context of mainly relationships mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or some sort of abandonment issue going on, but there's a, they have big tempers and

Christy:

Yeah. <laugh> huge.

Lucas:

Um, a lot of times that can lead to both self-destructive behaviors or even just, uh, externally destructive. So like towards other people or things. Right. And it's oftentimes not proportional to what's going on. But typically the reasoning for that is because it's not about that thing. That thing reminded them of something mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or means something more than what it might look like to you and I. And so they're responding to that trigger mm-hmm <affirmative>. Rather than just that event itself.

Christy:

Right. The, when you say that it also can sometimes look like bipolar disorder. They're oftentimes either co-occurring together or they're confused for one another. Because that up and down in the mood and the up and down with the, where they're at. And I think for a lot of people it's easy because they, bipolar is another one where people are like, oh, you're so bipolar. You know, like, I hate it drives me nuts.

Lucas:

That was quite the noise. <laugh>,

Christy:

Thank, thank you. I don't know where it came from, but that's another one where you hear a lot of people say, well, they're just so bipolar. Like they've gotta be up and down all the time. And it's like, yeah. I mean maybe, but there's, there could be something else going on, but because the aggression people, I think bipolars may be more well known than borderline personality disorder. So people default to, well, they just have bipolar when it could just be something completely different. And I say that because you can medicate bipolar.

Lucas:

Yes.

Christy:

Borderline personality disorder. There are some symptoms of borderline personality disorder that you can medicate, but you're not medicating for borderline personality disorder, you know.

Lucas:

Like there's a lot of co-occurring diagnoses that go with borderline person. Like oftentimes people are depressed. or really anxious. And so you can medic medicate those things.

Christy:

Impulsive, ADHD

Lucas:

Yeah. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. All of those things. But you can't, like Christy just said, you can't medicate borderline personality disorder itself. And a good way to tell the difference between the bipolar, just this is, I think the reactivity with mood or like the, the changes in mood, a borderline personality disorder, the mood shifts will be within a day or a couple of hours. <laugh>

Christy:

I was gonna say, sometimes a half an hour.

Lucas:

Minutes.

Christy:

Yeah. You know, you just never know.

Lucas:

Ah bipolar disorder is like two week period versus a week period. Of, of the same sort of symptoms. So that's a huge indicator as to one or the other. Um, and it's super fun when they're both occurring.

Christy:

<laugh>,

Lucas:

<laugh> at the same time when you got both.

Christy:

'cause Wow.

Lucas:

Because I mean, that's an experience.

Christy:

Yeah it is an experience. And also very, very miserable for the person going through it. Which is, and I think that when I go back to finding empathy, it's easier to find empathy for the, the ones that people think are, are real. It's sometimes I find it's harder for people to accept that personality disorders are real. I'm using air quotes. You can't see me, but there's a lot, there's a lot of air quotes happening here.

Lucas:

There's a lot of air quotes going. Yeah. And I think what, uh, family members or parents really struggle with too, or even partners too, is that they'll have these really big emotional outbursts or struggle, and then it seems like a light switch turned on mm-hmm <affirmative>. And they're fine. And it's like nothing happened. And they're, they're lovey again. And they're, it's like they never just said all these horrible things to you, or they weren't just saying that they're gonna kill themselves. Like now they're just fine. Um, and I like to tell like that's the, that's the real person. That's who we're working to be all of the time. Right. And the out of control that, that's the, that's the borderline personality disorder we're talking mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so we don't listen to that version. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, we listen to this other version mm-hmm <affirmative>. So

Christy:

We listen and we don't judge.

Lucas:

Yes. <laugh>, uh, things are, it's just, it's really hard to control your emotions. 'cause they, they, when it comes down to it, uh, somebody with borderline personality disorder has really big emotions. And are very susceptible to those emotions. They just feel things much stronger than an somebody else might. And if you don't know what that's like, it's, and I only know what it's like because I've talked to so many people, <laugh> about it. But it's really hard. It's so hard to feel things that way.

Christy:

Yeah. And I, I think the other part is like, it is scary to love somebody in any capacity that has a borderline personality disorder. Because I mean, you and I understand it. We're equipped with it. Someone comes in and shows me self-harm, I can work through that. If you're a spouse, a parent or whatever, and your kid is self-harming, that is scary.

Lucas:

It's terrifying.

Christy:

It is absolutely terrifying. And the in the kicker is that you take them to the hospital or you take them somewhere and they'll be like, they'll do an assessment and they'll be like, it's borderline personality disorder. You know? They don't really need to be here. And it's like, so then you're, you have this kid that you don't know what, or friend, adult, spouse, whatever that is, participating in some really scary things and some, and saying some really scary things and you don't know what, what to do.

Lucas:

Yeah. Oftentimes, I've, I've talked to a lot of parents who they've met, uh, other professionals or hospitals or whatever, and they, because they have this label of borderline personality disorder, or that's what they think it is even mm-hmm <affirmative>. They don't get taken seriously. Because it's just like, oh, they're just borderline. Like, they're just, it's all attention seeking. I'm using air quotes now. <laugh>. Um,

Christy:

You're just flying all over here today.

Lucas:

Just lot of air quotes today, <laugh>. Um, but it's, it can be really difficult to get help even when things really are serious. 'cause there are times where it's, this is the, it's not, again, air quotes mm-hmm <affirmative>. Attention seeking. Like this is the real, this is a real thing here. And we need help, uh, from a hospital to, to stabilize. It's not just an attention seeking behavior, but that it just gets labeled that automatically.

Christy:

And it can, they are, they are very distressed. It does not feel good to feel that way. And so whether or not, you know, they're Oh my god. Air quotes, whether they're actually going to act on the things that they're saying or the, the threats that they're making. 'cause they do make a lot of threats. Not just suicidal ideation or self harm, but running away. Taking things away. Leaving you, I mean, there's, they use threats in order to get their needs met. 'cause they want you to worry about them. 'cause they want to know that they're cared for. They want you to stay. I read something one time about borderline personality disorder. I dunno why this came to me. Here we are. That said that every borderline people with borderline personality disorder think that everyone should love them unconditionally. Like their mother.

Lucas:

Hmm.

Christy:

Like, they just think everybody should just love them all of the time.

Lucas:

Interesting.

Christy:

I know.

Lucas:

I'm gonna have to chew on that one.

Christy:

Chew, Chew it.

Lucas:

I will.

Christy:

Yes. I mean, and obviously a a kind, caring, nurturing mother who's very patient. And they can do kind of whatever they want to with them. And no matter how you treat them, they're always going to be there.

Lucas:

Right. I think that that's a really good way of reacting to some of those things. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like I've had, I've done a lot of coaching and relationships for significant others who are with my client on how to respond to certain things. And some of them are like, they're being told these, um, really bad things. 'cause maybe we're having what they would call an episode mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then the response of the partner is just, I'm gonna give you a hug now. And even though they're like getting called names, they just turn their ears off and they just give a hug and they're like, that's nice. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I'm still here. I'm not going anywhere. And then once they calm down, they're like, thank you. That's what I needed. Right. Um, even as therapists, we see this where we will have clients who try to test to see if we're gonna stay mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so, um, I have been, I know, I'm sure Christy has too. I've been called many names, <laugh>.

Christy:

Oh, so many. It's the best.

Lucas:

Some really creative ones. That I will not say on this podcast, but it's all to make sure that I'm still gonna be here next time. And when they show up next time, and I'm all smiles and I'm just excited to see them. Like that means the world. And eventually those things stop.

Christy:

Yep.

Lucas:

Or they get lessened. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. But it does, it takes a lot of effort.

Christy:

It does.

Lucas:

And patience.

Christy:

And patience. Yeah. Patience is the word. I remember one of my, she, she was, she was a spitfire. And to this day just adore the kid. She's not a kid anymore. She's like 25 <laugh>. But anyway, the, the first time I met her, she came into my office and sat down and said, I don't like you. And I said, okay, I don't like you either. I don't even know you. I haven't even met you. I don't even know if I like you yet. Then she's like, well, can I sit in your chair? I said, yeah, go for it. Sit in my chair. And that, that kid did everything in their power to get me to not like them <laugh> Yeah. In that first session. And it's not funny, but it, it was funny to me because I'm not going anywhere. <laugh>, like I'm, I am here to help you work through this. And I mean, made huge progress. And so it's like there's hope. If you have people that have borderline personality disorder in your life, it can resolve to the point where it's gonna be okay. It's not, you're not always gonna walk. Walking on eggshells is something people say all of the time about people with borderline personality disorder. It's that you're walking on eggshells all of the time. And for now, yes. And for a while. Yeah. But not always. It doesn't have to be that way.

Lucas:

Exactly. And I can already hear some of my clients if they're, if you're listening to this, you might be thinking, wow, I'm a lot of work <laugh> and like, I am such a burden on my phone. And no. Absolutely. Stop it. Yeah. You know what I would say about that? If you're one of my clients listening to this. And

Christy:

Because when you tell people to stop it, that's what works.

Lucas:

Exactly. Yeah. That's the, my primary intervention, <laugh>,

Christy:

That's the best modality. Have you tried just quitting?

Lucas:

Right. But all of these things that we're talking about can get better. And it just, it's gonna take work and we're gonna figure it out, but it's just, we gotta figure out your situation, what best works for you, and it's gonna get better. Like I said before, you can get to a point where it's not even, like if you met a new clinician, they wouldn't be able to diagnose you with it. Um, unless you told them that that was what was going on. Right. And so how do you, how do we do that? What's, what's the treatment for that Christy?

Christy:

Forward Borderline personality star? Well, obviously cognitive behavioral therapy, talk therapy. Always the gold star is dialectical behavioral therapy, which goes into four basic premises, I guess, what do you call them?

Lucas:

Modules.

Christy:

Modules, mindfulness, distress tolerance, emotion regulation, interpersonal effectiveness.

Lucas:

Nailed it.

Christy:

I got 'em. Yes.

Lucas:

Nice job.

Christy:

God I'm so bad at listing things <laugh>, and in case you're, because Lucas would never brag on himself, but Lucas is a boss at working with people with borderline personality disorder. I don't know that that's the niche that he thought he would find himself in, but

Lucas:

I definitely did not.

Christy:

But then here you are.

Lucas:

And I love all of them so much.

Christy:

You do. And you're so good at it.

Lucas:

I appreciate that.

Christy:

That's the nicest thing I maybe ever said to you.

Lucas:

It's it's up there.

Christy:

It's close. Um, but it's, but it's true. And I think a lot of that comes from an ability to find the empathy, like what you were talking about before, the ability to find empathy for people and knowing that they're not exhausting to us at all. Like that's, they're not a lot of work. We want, we see that they're struggling. We want that to feel better. So, dialectic behavioral therapy, that's, that is, that's the way to go.

Lucas:

Yeah. And one of the, there's a lot of, uh, we call them assumptions in DBT, that, and all that means is when we are meeting with somebody or talking about a client, we are just inherently assuming these things off the off the bat. And that is that you are trying the best you can mm-hmm <affirmative>. And we can do better. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So, and that's what's called a dialectic. Um, and it's a really fancy word for two things that, uh, are true at, while directly opposing one another.

Christy:

Two opposite things can be true at the same time.

Lucas:

And when we experience these in life, it's, it can be very distressing. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. But a really common one, especially that I work, when I work with kids, is like, I love my parents and I hate them right now. Yeah. That can be true. And it's also really confusing when it happens. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and so trying to find ways to work through that through different distress tolerance techniques, which is where we take a really bad thing that's happened and we just try not to make it worse. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, emotion regulation, which is where we do that. Sort of like a long-term stability in ways to manage that. And then interpersonal effectiveness, which is where we build and maintain relationships, or we get what we want from people mm-hmm <affirmative>. Without destroying the relationships. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So like, if you're needing connection, interpersonal effectiveness would be like, so tell them you need a hug mm-hmm <affirmative>. Rather than saying, I want to kill myself.

Christy:

Right. <laugh>. So say what you really need from them instead of doing that.

Lucas:

Yeah. And then the fourth one, so the, the core of all of it, right. We, it is mindfulness. Um, and mindfulness. We've done a podcast on this before, so I'm not gonna go into great detail, but the primary thing with mindfulness is that we are in the moment mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, if there's one thing that borderline BPD wants to do to a person, it's take them out of this moment and throw them into a million different other directions.

Christy:

Yeah. Doing that.

Lucas:

Yeah. And then the fourth one, so the, the core of all of it, right. We is mindfulness. Um, and mindfulness. We've done a podcast on this before, so I'm not gonna go into great detail, but the primary thing with mindfulness is that we are in the moment mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, if there's one thing that borderline BPD wants to do to a person, it's take them out of this moment and throw them into a million different other directions. And so we need to establish what's going on right here and now, what are the facts? And then we can move forward mm-hmm <affirmative>. With some of those other skills. But mindfulness is at the core of everything with DBT. Mm-hmm

Christy:

<affirmative>. I would even encourage people to look at some of those DBT skills and try to use them themselves. Because you don't have to have a borderline personality disorder to benefit from DBT, but also I think it gives you an appreciation for how hard some of those skills really are to learn and to use effectively. Because even we've talked about being nonjudgmental in general is really hard.

Lucas:

It very, very hard. Yeah.

Christy:

And like, being in the moment for a lot of people is really, really hard. The difference I think is like, if I'm not in the moment, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna be super distressed or do something that's gonna wreck a relationship with somebody or whatever. Someone with BPD who's in a state of distress and is not in, can't be in the here and now, they need to be in a here and now so that they don't do something that will negatively impact their lives or their relationships.

Lucas:

Right. I've never really met somebody with BPD who has like, broken a relationship and then later been like, I'm really proud of myself for doing that. I'm really happy I did that. There, there's always regret there. And so if you're listening and you feel like we're describing you <laugh>, uh, just know that, that we can, we can fix this. It can get better. And if you're a caregiver, a parent, a partner, like also know that we can, we can work on this.

Christy:

Right. I, I thought it was fun. I was gonna say this and then I lost it. Imagine that. But when you said sometimes you work with kids and they like, they love and hate their parents at the same time, you also get parents who can love and hate their kids at the same time.

Lucas:

Absolutely.

Christy:

And that's, I'm telling you it's okay. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like you're not the only person that has those feelings. You're not, that doesn't make you a bad parent. It doesn't make you like unfeeling or whatever. It's, that is a very, very normal thing for a lot of people to feel.

Lucas:

Yep. We have intrusive emotional thoughts all the time. And just because we have a thought does not mean we have to give a power. And so just because, and I mean, I tell clients all the time that if we were privileged to everybody's inner thoughts, they're like our, nobody would be in public. We, we just wouldn't allow anybody to be in public <laugh>. Some of the people think..

Christy:

Right. Everybody just stay home.

Lucas:

Right. So it's, but when, when we're having those things, it, it can be very distressing. And somebody with BPD, it's extra distressing. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it's just something that needs to be worked on, but it can be worked on. That's the key. Mm-hmm

Christy:

<affirmative>. Could you imagine, because this, this is also what hap we're here, we're down a rabbit hole, but like with people with ADHD or people with obsessive compulsive disorder or like, their thoughts are so powerful and they, they think that they're the only ones that are having these negative thoughts and then they, it goes into, I'm a bad person 'cause I'm having these thoughts, or I'm a bad person. 'cause I'm saying these thoughts because a lot of people with ADHD or no impulse control, if it comes in the head, it goes out the mouth. And that's the problem. Most people walk around having some weird thoughts in their head. Everybody almost actually does. Walk around. If, if, could you imagine if everybody knew every thought that went into your head?

Lucas:

That's what I'm saying. That would be really bad.

Christy:

Terrifying. Terrifying. But you have to help them figure out the words that should come out.

Lucas:

That's right. And a thought is just a thought until we give it power. And similarly to words mm-hmm <affirmative>. So if I were to say, like, if I were to insult Christy and like, I don't know Russian <laugh>, um, would that mean anything to you? Unless I told you what it meant.

Christy:

It depends on how mad you were when you did it, but I'm gonna go with no.

Lucas:

Okay. Yeah. 'cause it,

Christy:

If you were yelling at me, <laugh>,

Lucas:

Fair enough. <laugh>. But 'cause if you don't know the language, all a word is, is a bunch of syllables and sounds put together in a very specific order. It doesn't mean anything until we say that this is what it means. It's just, that's the same thing with thoughts. And so we don't have to give a thought of power. We can just say, I'm having, I'm having this thought right now. And I'm gonna distract from that 'cause I don't wanna think about that right now. Which is one of the distress tolerance skills.

Christy:

Look at that. Distract.

Lucas:

Yeah. In fact, there's a DBT by the way is like, I mean, therapy in general, we like our acronyms, but like DBT is a lot of acronyms.

Christy:

It is acronym heavy.

Lucas:

There is a whole, uh, acronym called accepts. And it is all a bunch of different distraction techniques.

Christy:

Oh my goodness.

Lucas:

Um, because when you think of distraction, typically you think of activities or things to do. That's the first letter <laugh>. So there's a bunch of different things that you can do that are distractions.

Christy:

We should, we should also, I mean this is probably a good time to say that we do offer a DBT group here.

Lucas:

Oh yeah. We should probably know

Christy:

<laugh>. We, it's an outpatient group. I don't do it. But Lucas does. You, you do. Maybe that would make more sense for you to describe.

Lucas:

I was just gonna let you roll with it, just see how far you got.

Christy:

Not very <laugh>. That's, that's, that's this the end.

Lucas:

We have DBT group, <laugh>, <laugh>.

Christy:

I know we have one.

Lucas:

Yeah. So, um, yeah, we have an outpatient DBT group and what's cool about it is we, we practice DBT to fidelity and mm-hmm. That's a really fancy clinical term for we, we do it correctly.

Christy:

So where it's research based, evidence driven. That's, it's been shown and proven time and time again that this is an effective way to treat this. And we do it to a T. What you do, right?

Lucas:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So lots of places will say that they provide DBT or they do DBT stuff and that's not the same mm-hmm <affirmative>. So what, what it looks like here is that you, you have an individual therapist and we also do group therapy once a week and you'll, with your individual therapist, you will have, uh, they will be your phone coach. So then the person can, the client can contact their phone coach in times of crisis and then the, the clinician can then help them through those times using skills, which is really, really cool. And it's been actually like a really, really awesome experience, um, helping clients in real time with those things when they, uh, when they occur. And then a really big portion of this that makes it so helpful is that to be practicing DBT to fidelity, you have to have what's called a, a consultation team. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so every clinician that's involved in DBT meets once a week to talk about clients and to make sure that we are all practicing DBT the correct way. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, giving any tips or any thoughts of how things should be going, checking in on how the group is going and what we need maybe need to change or modify, things like that. Um, right now our group is primarily focused on just adolescents mm-hmm <affirmative>. But hopefully as we continue to progress, we're, we would love to have an adult group or even a group for younger kids as well. And DBT doesn't need to be just for people who have borderline personality disorder. It's anybody who has really difficult times with emotion regulation. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So if you have really strong emotions and have a hard time controlling them, DBTs for you mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um,

Christy:

Or or even relationships.

Lucas:

Relationships. It's great for working with people who have suicidal ideation mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, issues with self harm, that sort of a thing. So if that sounds like you or your, your kid, then maybe, maybe give us a call. It's, we'll work with you and we'll see if it's a good fit. Yeah.

Christy:

Yeah. We have, it's a, a team chuck full of just very, very talented therapists.

Lucas:

Yeah. We're all very passionate about it. It is, it was all voluntary to be in this group and so everybody wants to be there mm-hmm <affirmative>. And we just, we just love what we do. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So

Christy:

Dedicated. And I think because you've seen so much success too with the people that are doing it, that it, it's like, oh my gosh, this is working. Like we can it's,

Christy:

It's, we're doing it.

Lucas:

It's super cool. Some of our very first round of clients, um, we see, we still see individually and they, they still rant and rave about how much help it's been mm-hmm <affirmative>. And how much like they try and teach their friends it and uh, it's adorable <laugh>. Um, but it's been wonderful. And super helpful for people.

Christy:

I think one of the big things too that distinguishes DBT from other things is that you're still doing diary cards. Correct?

Lucas:

Yep.

Christy:

And, and that's essentially kind of like an easy walking around journal of skills.

Lucas:

Exactly.

Christy:

Right?

Lucas:

Yep. Yep. And then it's, it sounds a lot more tedious than it actually is, but like, 'cause it like diary but you're tracking how your symptoms and how they are throughout the week and it gives you a really big insight into like how things actually are going. It can be challenging for somebody with uh, BPD to look at, look back on their week and say how things are because if there was just like, this is with anybody too. But specifically with somebody who has BPD to look back on their week and say accurately what things were like, oftentimes if there's a one really big incident, it's like, like my whole week was horrible mm-hmm <affirmative>. But then if we look back at this card, it's like actually mm-hmm <affirmative>. This was really good. What happened here that made this day so good. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Even though something bad happened, like, what'd you do there? Yeah. And we can really focus on successes and how things, um, were accomplished that week. It's not just talking about the negatives. Although that's really important. It helps people see that there's a lot of progress being made. Because people with BPD are really hard on themselves mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so when they don't do things the way that they think they should be doing them, they're so critical and it's really hard to see any of the positives or like they're making successes mm-hmm <affirmative>. Which is part of our job to help them see those successes. But for them to be able to track that and then have like actual data mm-hmm <affirmative>. To look at and be like, oh wow, I am doing better. Even though I had one bad day this week, overall I've been doing great this month. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So.

Christy:

And again, these are skills that don't just, they don't just benefit people with BPD. Like I, how many times do people come into your office? And I was like, how was your week? It was, it was awful. I had this one, whatever. And it's like one day outta the week was really bad and the rest of 'em were all like, okay. Or even like, even some good times in there. But we as I think as human beings are generally more apt to stick with the things that were bad that happened because it makes us uncomfortable. It makes us like not feel good and it kind of takes everything over. So the times when we're just Okay, people just don't think that that's like a good thing. It's like, man, I'll take an Okay. All of the time. Give me an okay day. It's okay to be okay. I'm that it's okay to be okay. <laugh>.

Lucas:

So what are some, let's, let's start with parents who have. Uh, children who are experiencing maybe some, what's called borderline borderline traits. So maybe they're not, maybe a clinician doesn't feel comfortable giving 'em a, a full diagnosis of borderline personality disorder.

Christy:

We can't really as children anyways.

Lucas:

Um, even though we do see it.

Christy:

Oh, absolutely. Yes.

Lucas:

So some clinicians are comfortable doing that. Some are not. Typically with personality disorders, you're not supposed to. Borderline personality disorder is a gray one. But that's a topic for a different day. <laugh>.

Christy:

Yeah and it's boring because..

Lucas:

You're right. That's a really boring one.

Christy:

... It doesn't matter what we call it. It's still there and we're still gonna treat it.

Lucas:

So, uh,

Christy:

Which is also for another thing, <laugh>.

Lucas:

So they, they have, uh, traits, let's say. So then what are some tips that you give parents when working with somebody and now it's difficult 'cause every time we give pieces of advice, it's very personalized to that person. But there are some, I think there are some general things.

Christy:

Oh, for sure. I mean, we, we've talked about this, but like, the patience part of it I think is a huge thing. And a lot of times it really just having the parents understand what it is and what they're dealing with is a game changer. And it's so validating for them to know, like, I'll provide education all day long as to this is what's happening, this is how you should respond. And honestly, the biggest thing for me is you don't put more emotions into an emotional person. So like, if they're coming at you and they're having an emotional time and it takes everything in you to not respond in an emotional way, it is just putting fuel on that fire and it is not gonna help anything. So just saying, you know what, I'm here, I'm, I'm not going anywhere. I will listen to you talk. I understand you're having a hard time validating what they're going through. But I think the hardest thing to do with people who have borderline personality disorder is to not respond with emotion. But you can't.

Lucas:

Exactly. An analogy I like to use for this is like a, somebody with BPD is like a kite in the wind mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it is blowing up there <laugh>. Okay. Now when, what, what they're wanting or what they think they want mm-hmm <affirmative>. Is you to join them mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right. Because that feels validating. And so when, what's really important is that we are a rock mm-hmm <affirmative>. For them when they're blowing in that wind and we're trying to slowly reel them in mm-hmm <affirmative>. Okay. We can't do that if we are heightened in our emotional state as well. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So it's really important, like Christy was saying, that we have to, we have to take care of ourselves mm-hmm <affirmative>. In these moments and really make sure that our distress tolerance is taken care of so that we can help them with theirs. And you mentioned you're already ahead of the game here with like validation.

Christy:

Per use

Lucas:

Validation is huge in this. It is. That is probably one of the biggest struggles I see with parents in general, because many times it doesn't take a whole lot for the kite to start blowing in the wind. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Okay. And so they wanna, parents just want to go to problem solving mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right away and try to fix the, the problem or whatever. So an example of this would be, I had somebody who was really, really upset that they got a bunch of failing grades put into their grade book. Um, and it was, it was all their fault. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. They didn't, they didn't do the work, they didn't turn it in.

Christy:

Of course they never turn it in. Nobody turns it in.

Lucas:

Right. So they didn't, they didn't turn it in. It's, it is their fault and they know this. So a parent's response to that logically would be, well, why didn't you turn it in? Like, you just need to turn it in and it would be fine. That's not the point. <laugh>

Christy:

Right. <Laugh>

Lucas:

What, what we needed to do and was we needed to first validate mm-hmm <affirmative>. That what you're feeling right now makes sense mm-hmm <affirmative>. And we, it's okay that you're feeling this way. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Now once we get there, once you validate it, disarms the person mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so they're not trying to convince you that they're upset and that they need that it's okay that they're upset mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then they start calming down. And once they get to a state where they can actually talk, now we can move into problem solving. t's a balance between acceptance and change. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So acceptance is a validating part. Change is moving towards a solution. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. If you move too fast into change, you're going to have somebody push back against you. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And no change is even gonna be made. And it's just gonna have a large emotional response. If you stick with validation and you never move into change, then obviously change is never gonna happen. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. We're just gonna sit here and be miserable. So a lot of times it's like, yeah, wow, that really sucks. What are we gonna do about it? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And that's a really fast version of it. And a lot of times it can take a while to get there. But we first have to validate.

Christy:

Right. I think I, I mean the amount of times I say this sentence in, in my day is like, you can't have a rational conversation with an irrational person. It's just isn't gonna work. They're not in a place to hear you. If they're irrational and you are trying to reason with them that is not where we're at. We're we are, we are joining, we are, we are going into the yuck with people being like, let, I'll sit here with you. Like I'll, let's, let's figure this out. But I'm not, I'm not gonna add anything to it because trying to have a rational conversation with an irrational person is just gonna make everybody mad. And I think this hap this happens a lot in therapy too sometimes where you get caught up in it and you're like, you feel like you're being frustrated and then you're getting frustrated and you're like, they caught me <laugh>. No. And you just gotta have to bring it back. You reel it back, but it happens. And you just, it, it's, it's hard to not have an emotional response, but the more you practice it and the more you understand what's happening with whoever it is that you're dealing with in your life, the easier it is because you can see that when you don't respond in an emotional way, it gets better.

Lucas:

Yeah. Because they need you to ground them. And once they start getting grounded, then you can start moving. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So first focus on that and then move forward. Uh, biggest mistake a lot of people make is just trying to move too fast. And you have to be patient. So...

Christy:

Right, because your, if you don't, if you don't have a personality disorder, your brain is working very, very differently than theirs. And you can't project how your brain is working onto how their brain should work because we don't shut on ourselves.

Lucas:

Yes. I'm so happy you said that. <laugh>.

Christy:

<laugh>. I got it. I got it. And so it's, it's, you, you have to adjust your expectations for people when they're struggling. And I think that's the hardest thing. And maybe even, maybe even accepting that you love somebody that has a personality disorder is difficult. Because you think they should just do the things that neurotypical kids can do or neurotypical people can do. Like, why can you not see that this way? Why do you not understand that? And and that's a lot of why questions, which we don't ask <laugh>. We don't ever ask why questions that's stay far, far away from the why questions.

Lucas:

But why not?

Christy:

Oh my gosh. Because it's so terrible. Well, because, well, if I'm gonna really answer the question because as soon as I ask you a why question, you're gonna get defensive. You're automatically putting somebody in a defensive situation. Even if it's, even if it's inquisitive. If somebody asks me why I panic about anything. Like, well why are you doing that? I don't, I'm sweating. I don't, I don't know. Why are you asking me that? 'cause like, 'cause you get defensive and, and it's, it becomes more about justifying what you're feeling and justifying what you're doing rather than explaining to you how I'm feeling and what I'm doing.

Lucas:

Right. So instead of asking why ask what happened?

Christy:

Yeah. What's up with that?

Lucas:

Right. What's going on? Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Christy:

Look like you're having a rough day. How can I help you?

Lucas:

Yeah. Now you're gonna ask why on accident we. We still do always. All the time. Um,

Christy:

Sometimes I yell it <laugh>

Lucas:

True.

Christy:

Why<laugh>?

Lucas:

Uh, and if you do and you find that that was triggering or whatever, apologize and back up. And try again.

Christy:

Ugh. The power of apology. You're, you're not gonna be perfect. It's an, these are emotional situations. They are highly charged emotional situations. You are going to mess up. You are not going to be perfect. But to come back and say, I'm sorry that I wasn't what you needed in that moment, I'm gonna, I'll do better next time. It's closing the loop is so important for people and it's so validating.

Lucas:

Yes. So, and a lot of this stuff, like when you're working with kids as parents, like it's the same stuff. If you're working with anybody, if a loved one mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right. Who, who's struggling with this sort of thing, validation is the key. But what about if it's you and, and you are the one who's struggling with this. And so what, what are some tips you like to give people, um, who might be struggling with borderline personality disorder?

Christy:

Oh one, one of the big ones is to just take a minute, identify where the emotions are in your body. Like what are you feeling, where is it coming from? And then getting familiar with what those mean. Like teaching people, like when you're, when you're getting heightened and this is what you're feeling, this is what you do and that's where you put in a skill. And sometimes it's easier for people to use skills and some pe times it's, it's really hard. But because I found, at least with, with the borderline clients that I have, they don't want to feel that way. So they're more likely to use a skill or at least try it when they're, when they're starting to identify that they're feeling not great. They're more likely to use the skills 'cause they don't want it to get worse.

Lucas:

Right. Yeah. One that I like to use, um, I I like to ask people, what was, what's your objective here? What's your goal? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. For this, um, a lot of times this is in the context of a conversation with a significant other mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or some sort of conflict is your goal to win the argument or to solve the problem mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, those are very different. And a lot of times as human beings, BPD or not, we tend to we tend to try to win it. No. Um, and so if your goal is to solve the problem or to make things better, what's the most effective way of doing that? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And is, so, is yelling an effective means of doing that even though your emotions might be justified. Or valid mm-hmm <affirmative>. And all emotions are valid. That doesn't mean that it's the most effective approach to managing that.

Lucas:

Yeah. Uh, like an example of this is like if somebody cuts me off in traffic, I might have some big emotions about that and those emotions might be justified and the emotions might tell me to go do something like tailgate him or cut him off or whatever mm-hmm <affirmative>. But that's not an effective means of attaining my goal, which is to get to my destination safely. So trying to figure out what that is and then how do we get there mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, in, in a most effective manner. And that's a skill that takes a long time to practice. A lot of, a lot of reflection. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. On, on things and trying to, so if this happens next time, what will I do? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. But that's one of my favorite ones to discuss with clients

Christy:

Or, I mean, I use chain analysis all of the time.

Lucas:

All the time.

Christy:

Why, I mean, you go through, like something happens, right? It's done, it's over with, whatever, but we don't want it to happen again. So we go and start, what was the trigger? What happened? What was the thing that started? And we go through the whole incident and write it down in a circle and people are so sick of me doing this.

Lucas:

So sick.

Christy:

But we're gonna do it every time. <laugh>. And if nothing else, I feel like sometimes just not having to do a chain analysis is enough for people to be like, I'm not gonna have, I'm not gonna have an incident. I don't <laugh> I don't wanna do, I don't wanna do this with Christy anymore. But then you go through and you identify, you know, different triggers, thoughts, emotions, what could have done differently? Where, where did this go wrong? Like, and you kind of go through that whole thing. And, um, because like Lucas had said nine times outta 10, after, after these huge things happen, they don't feel great about it. It's not like, oh yeah, I really showed them who his boss. No. You've just wrecked a relationship or it's a part of a relationship. And that's literally the thing that they don't wanna do. <laugh>. So like if you go through it and you're like, how can we prevent this? What could we do differently? Where could we have used our skills? You know, and, and we go over it ad nauseum.

Lucas:

Right.

Christy:

But it's helpful.

Lucas:

It's, it's a spiral a lot of times. Right? <laugh>. Kind of where you start.

Christy:

So much a circle.

Lucas:

It is like we, so a big emotion occurs and so then they might say or do something that really impacts the relationship and they feel very justified in that moment. And then once they calm down and they start to ground a little bit more, they're like, oh my goodness, I did this. And now I feel the abandonment. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because now they might have actually left or distanced themselves mm-hmm <affirmative>. Which then spirals them again. And then we've, now we're in a loop of abandonment and pushing people away

Christy:

And, and then how do I get them back?

Lucas:

Right. And the whole, I hate you, don't leave me.

Christy:

Yep. It's tough.

Lucas:

It is, it is a very difficult diagnosis to live with. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, it's, there's a lot of misunder like we've talked about. There's a lot of misunderstandings about it and a lot of stigma surrounded about this. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. It is not, I tell clients all the time, it's, it's not as bad as it looks or sounds. Um, it is very manageable. It is very treatable. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Do not look things up on it. 'cause it's just not gonna be helpful.

Christy:

No. And everybody's different. You know.

Lucas:

Everybody's different.

Christy:

It's just, it's just not worth it.

Lucas:

There's a lot of research on this and there's a lot of misinformation on the internet. Um, and I'm, of course, as soon as I say, don't look stuff up, people are gonna look stuff up on it. But your specific situation is incredibly specific. BPD is a very specific diagnosis to a person. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And Yeah. We have diagnostic criteria, but it's so vague. <laugh> Because it's so broad of, uh, of a diagnosis and symptomology.

Christy:

Right. And a lot of times I get, I get people who get that diagnosis and they feel so validated. Because they just think they're, that they're crazy. And that because they're not responding to medication that everybody else is responding to, and they're not, they're not having the same luck with just doing straight up anxiety, depression. I mean, they're, they're just not having the same success with it. And so they start to feel like something is really, really wrong with them. And so when you can, when you can boil it down and be like, you know what, I think this is what we're dealing with. They're like, okay, name it to tame it. You know, if you can name it. That's one of the only, not only, I shouldn't say that, but it's one of the nice things about diagnoses is that sometimes they can be validating for people so they don't just feel like this is who they're supposed to be.

Lucas:

Right. And if you're looking for, so if you're hearing this and you're like, I should go talk to somebody about this, look for people who specialize in this. Look for people who maybe in their bio, they talk about how they work with this mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or they're trained in DBT or have experience working with DBT. Those are gonna be kind of your go-tos. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then, or if you can't find that, call a local clinic and just ask if anybody's comfortable working with this diagnosis. Um, or you just have questions about that. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because it's, it's really important that you find somebody that knows what they're talking about. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. With this. And then also that you trust. And if you go therapy shopping, I know we've talked about this in past podcast. It's okay. We are not offended. If you come in and you're like, eh, this isn't, this maybe isn't for me. Don't even have to, you don't even have to tell us. That's, that's fine.

Christy:

That's great. That's great. Go

Lucas:

I just want you to feel good. And you can, so.

Christy:

Let's figure out who, let's find somebody else for you. I'll make the phone call.

Lucas:

Absolutely.

Christy:

Don't care.

Lucas:

Yeah. We just want you to start feeling better. 'cause you don't have to feel this way anymore.

Christy:

No. Nope. You don't.

Lucas:

So we always want to encourage you to ask the question, is it just me? You're likely not alone. And there's always a way to help. If anything we've talked about today resonates with you, please reach out.

Christy:

Do you have a topic you'd like us to talk about? Message us. We'd love to hear from you. We haven't gotten some, we haven't gotten a lot of ideas from people lately.

Lucas:

That's true.

Christy:

But you can, I mean, we're very nice people like drop Well, I am.

Lucas:

Most of the time.

Christy:

<laugh>. Drop, drop a dm. Text us if you know our phone number. Call. Oh, we've, and we've got the, is it just me@dakotaranch.org. Feel free to email something in.

Lucas:

That would be great. And don't forget to share us with your friends and family.

Announcer:

Thanks for listening to today's episode of Is It Just Me? To learn more or make an appointment for psychiatric or mental health services at Dakota Family Services, go to dakotafamilyservices.org or call 1 800 2 0 1 64 95.

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