About the Hosts

Christy Wilkie provides therapy for children and adolescents, ages 5-25, who have complex behavioral health issues. She combines her extensive clinical expertise with a belief in kids, and has a unique ability to find and develop their strengths. She works hard to be an ideal therapist for her clients, doing what is best to fit their needs.

Lucas Mitzel provides therapy for children, adolescents, and adults, ages 5 - 30. He believes building relationships with clients is the most important piece of successful therapy. He loves what he does because it allows him to walk next to people he would never have met had he chosen a different profession, as they work to make amazing life changes. He has the honor of meeting people at their worst, all while watching them grow into the people they’ve always wanted to be.

Transcript
Understanding Chronic Pain

Featuring Christy Wilkie, LCSW, and Lucas Mitzel, LCSW, Dakota Family Services

Announcer:

This episode of, Is It Just Me, is brought to you by Dakota Family Services, your trusted partner in mental and behavioral health, whether you need in-person or virtual care. The team of professionals at Dakota Family Services is dedicated to supporting children, adolescents, and adults in their journey to better mental health.

Christy:

Disrupting life patterns and life routines that aren't serving you.

Lucas:

It's how we feel that keeps us going.

Christy:

You can be a masterpiece in a work of art all at the same time.

Lucas:

Hey everyone, I'm Lucas.

Christy:

And I'm Christy.

Lucas:

And you're listening to the, Is It Just Me podcast.

Christy:

Where we aimed to provide education, decrease the stigma, and expel some myths around mental health.

Lucas:

Christy, is it just me or is having chronic pain really difficult?

Christy:

Yes, it is. Yes. <laugh>, it's, it's, it's very d it is very difficult.

Lucas:

And end of podcast.

Christy:

And that's the end. <laugh>, we, we like everybody, we wanted a shorter podcast today, so like 10 seconds.

Lucas:

Right. So I, one thing that kind of surprised me as I was looking into this is what they consider chronic pain. And it takes up to, like, it has to be lasting up to an over three months for it to be considered chronic pain.

Christy:

Really?

Lucas:

And I just feel like that's way too long.

Christy:

I agree with that.

Lucas:

And I, I don't know what it would be considered before that, but like, man..

Christy:

Who, who's they?

Lucas:

I don't know. This is from like

Christy:

Who's making the definition because I'm gonna write a letter.

Lucas:

This is from like the Cleveland Clinic and other places that I've looked at.

Christy:

I guess they know what they're doing.

Lucas:

Yeah. But three months is a long time to be in pain.

Christy:

It is.

Lucas:

To not have a diagnosis of chronic pain.

Christy:

Right? Yes. I have been, I have, I have had chronic pain for less than three months and it was too long.

Lucas:

Yeah. I mean, any sort of pain is too long. But to have constant

Christy:

I guess it wasn't chronic pain that I had. It was just, it was un chronic pain. It was just a long time pain.

Lucas:

Yeah. I don't, I don't know, but it's, it is really common to experience chronic pain. Some estimates were like at 20, like 21% of people have experienced chronic pain or are experiencing chronic pain.

Christy:

That's a high number.

Lucas:

Really high number. Which is also surprising. And there's a lot of different kinds of chronic pain out there. Like, there's neuropathic pain.

Christy:

You can do it, you can do it buddy.

Lucas:

Which is like nerve pain. I probably mis, I totally mispronounced that and I apologize. And which is like, even as air quote, simple as like nerve pain. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like I feel like I've pinched a nerve before, but if it lasts more than three months, that would be considered obviously chronic pain. I can't imagine having like a pinched sciatica for more than three months it's awful, for like a week. So, no, thank you. There's musculoskeletal pain, which is like bones, joints, ligaments. Most of the time it's associated with like a sports, like an injury. Of some kind. You know, nothing about that. <laugh>, uh, we'll get more into that probably later. Visceral pain, which is more of like your organs. So like heart, lungs, bladder, that sort of a thing.

Christy:

Well, your organs can hurt.

Lucas:

Oh yeah. Let me, I'll tell you about that later.

Christy:

Yeah. <laugh>, I can't wait.

Lucas:

Yeah. Then there's inflammatory pain. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Which is most often caused by like autoimmune diseases such as like rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, Crohn's disease, that sort of a thing.

Christy:

Oh this is the Lucas show today.

Lucas:

That that part is, yeah. Uh, 'cause I have Crohn's disease, everybody. And then there's central sensitization, which is the changes. There's changes to your central nervous system, which make you more sensitive to pain and other sensations.

Christy:

Really.

Lucas:

Yeah. And so this can happen with any, any type of pain. You could have central sensitization where you're just way more sensitive to stimulus or pain matter.

Christy:

How do you, you don't know the answer to this, but I'm just curious how, how one figures out that they're more sensitive to pain than somebody else.

Lucas:

I would imagine, and I'm not meaning this in jest, that they're just in pain more often <laugh>.

Christy:

Right. But like, if you don't know what like normal pain should feel like how do you even know if you're in more pain than somebody else? You know? 'cause it would just be normal to you.

Lucas:

That's fair.

Christy:

Is is like, is that when people say, when we talk pain tolerance.

Lucas:

Yeah. Well, and I do think that people who experience chronic pain have more of a pain tolerance than other people. Because your baseline just shifts up. More what a stomach ache to me, because I have Crohn's disease. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Is, would probably a normal stomach ache for me would probably send somebody home for the day. You know, like it's just, I'm used to it and I've experienced what really bad is before. So then this is nothing.

Christy:

Tolerable.

Lucas:

Yeah. I can do this. So it's not fun. I will say, and thankfully for me, and this isn't the case for everybody, but thankfully for me, I've found a medication regimen that's very helpful.

Christy:

Right. But I do think that that's really hard for people to find.

Lucas:

It is, yeah.

Christy:

Especially with chronic pain.

Lucas:

Absolutely. And then depending on what the chronic pain is, there may not be a necessarily like a good medication regimen that you could take. I know like a lot of people wanna avoid opioids. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Totally get that. Especially with the opioid e epidemic that we're experiencing in our country. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, but yeah, it, it can be really difficult.

Christy:

Well, and I think even getting a diagnosis can be difficult.

Lucas:

So difficult.

Christy:

Right. Because I, I think sometimes people have a hard time really explaining to people how they're feeling. And I'm not discounting anything here, but I think people go to the, what would be the least like intense diagnosis and they go from there and then they kind of treat from there instead of being like, no, I am in pain. And then to figure out where the cause of that is coming from. I think that's really hard. I know that is with autoimmune disorders anyway.

Lucas:

Yeah. And so just speaking from my own personal experience, but then also the experiences of people that I've worked with who have chronic illnesses and chronic pain, they very often feel like they are invalidated. And not being listened to. I remember when I was trying to figure out what the heck was going on with me. Uh, I got my, the person I was seeing at first kept asking me if I was taking too much ibuprofen mm-hmm <affirmative>. To cause all of the stomach pain.

Christy:

Oh dear.

Lucas:

And I was like, I don't really take ibuprofen. They're like, but are you sure? <laugh>?

Christy:

And I was like, are you gaslighting me <laugh>?

Lucas:

I'm pretty sure I haven't taken ibuprofen for like months. And I'm like, I'm good, but are you sure? Like they prob they asked me that. Like I'm not joking like four times. And I hear that experience happens a lot to people of different types of chronic pain or thinking that it's all in your head.

Christy:

Yeah. Well I think, I think the hard part about chronic pain is that you can't see it. Right. And so, I know a lot of people that I've worked with have chronic pain, have always, I shouldn't say always, we don't use those words, but have very oftentimes felt like people either don't believe them or that people think that it isn't real and that they're not really in pain, or that it's really not that bad. So finding some sort of validation from people is like, it's hard to find sometimes.

Lucas:

Yeah. Yeah. And then depending on what the direct cause of the pain is mm-hmm. It can be just really hard to find. In general. I mean for my, I'm gonna talk a lot about my own experiences today, but because he's

Christy:

Super self-centered,

Lucas:

Super self-centered, <laugh> and it, you can't see it on the outside 'cause it's all internal. Right. And so then they have to do all of these like crazy scopes and like try to like I swallowed like a camera once.

Christy:

Oh sure.

Lucas:

Which was super fun. He said sarcastically, <laugh> and like, and it's all just like, well maybe we'll see something uhhuh. And then I know this is an experience that a lot of people have where they go and they do all of these tests over and over and over and it always comes back normal. It's like, I am not normal. Something is wrong with me. I shouldn't feel this way. And it is almost maddening to the point where people I've talked to were like, I, I'll take any diag, I'll take cancer. At this point.

Christy:

I just need to know what it is.

Lucas:

I just need to know what it is. It's so hard.

Christy:

Yeah. I have a friend that's going through that right now and just like in and outta doctors all the time and they have ran every test that there is to run and they can't figure out what's wrong.

Lucas:

So frustrating.

Christy:

It's, It's, it's frustrating and it's anxiety producing and then it gets into your head because you have all of these medical tests that say nothing is wrong, but you're trying to convince, not that you have to convince like a partner, but like even an employer or somebody that like really, I don't feel well. Like, I don't know, I don't know what to tell you. I know everything's coming back just fine, but I don't feel good.

Lucas:

Right. Yeah. And it's like to go through some of these procedures or these medical tests can be really intense mm-hmm <affirmative>. Depending on what it is. And so it's not only time consuming where like you have to take work off to go do it sometimes or you have to do a lot of things on your personal time or even just not being able to eat mm-hmm <affirmative>. The night before because you, you're gonna go under anesthesia or something like that. Like some of these are really intense and then the tests themselves are really intense mm-hmm <affirmative>. And can be emotionally draining.

Christy:

Oh yeah.

Lucas:

And mess with your head a little bit. And then to have them go through all that work and to have it come back as now you're good. When you are constantly miserable. It just, that can really mess with somebody's head.

Christy:

Well and you know, God bless the internet, but then we get to Googling.

Lucas:

Oh no. Yeah.

Christy:

And that, and that is, and that doesn't usually help. And most of the time we say don't go to doctor Google, but how many times do you get a result back a test result back and something is elevated and the first thing you do is Google your elevated results.

Lucas:

To see why, how, what's killing you?

Christy:

100%.

Lucas:

Yeah. Because you're obviously dying.

Christy:

Prognosis three weeks, you know, like for sure. But, and then you go down even a more slippery slope because really we can't take all of the things that is going on with you and all of your tests and holistically look at something without, you know, an MD <laugh>. It turns out. And so it, but then it causes even more anxiety. It's like internet induced Google anxiety. I'm adding that one to the DSM.

Lucas:

That should be, yeah,

Christy:

I think so.

Lucas:

So then you have all these tests and then you, like, hopefully one day you finally get a diagnosis mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right. And then you have to start, which is great. Now it's like there's light at the end of tunnel. We know what this is. And then you have to start the journey of finding the correct medicine.

Christy:

Right, yeah.

Lucas:

The correct treatment for it. Assuming there even is one

Christy:

That's very true.

Lucas:

So, and that by itself is even afterwards is maddening too.

Christy:

Well 'cause some medications will make you feel worse.

Lucas:

Absolutely.

Christy:

Instead of better.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

And you just kind of have to ride it out. Like, okay, that one's not for me. But it's hard when you keep having medications that make you feel worse to keep trying to find something that works <laugh>.

Lucas:

Yeah. Yeah. Or they make that part feel better, but there's some side effect mm-hmm <affirmative>. That really does suck. But it's like you have to, so then you, some people are forced to choose, is the side effect better than the disease itself? Or the chronic pain. And that's a really tough thing to answer. And it can really mess with your mental health.

Christy:

I, yes. I can't even imagine. Because you're still not feeling a hundred percent, like you just wanna feel whole again.

Lucas:

Right

Christy:

And you can't.

Lucas:

Right. You just wanna be able to live a normal life and just not have pain, anymore.

Christy:

But that's the tricky part too, is that I think that a lot of people with chronic pain do on the outside look like they are living a normal life, which is partly where the invalidation comes from. 'cause it's like, well, if you can go to work and you can have a family and you can run and you can work out and do all this stuff, like you're fine.

Lucas:

Yeah. I can't tell you how many times I've been told, well, you don't look sick.

Christy:

Yeah.

Lucas:

Oh yeah. <laugh>,

Christy:

That's like the point <laugh>

Lucas:

That's on the inside.

Christy:

Right. But it just, it leads to that because you, a lot of times you don't have a choice, like life goes on and you just have to figure out how to function in it. With this huge added stressor that a lot of other people, well apparently 80% of the population doesn't have to deal with.

Lucas:

Right. And if you, if you somebody with chronic pain, like if you chose to stay home every single time that you were in pain, you'd be out of a job. It is just the reality of it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so,

Christy:

And then who's gonna pay for your medication and who's gonna pay for your doctor visits.

Lucas:

Exactly. Exactly. So then it's, it's a matter of trying to figure out how to work through that in a way that where you can still be successful and manage your pain and manage your mental health and handle all the invalidation that can come with that.

Christy:

And or navigate disability services.

Lucas:

Oh, that's a beast in of itself.

Christy:

Which is overwhelming in and of itself because you almost have to have somebody walk through that with you and then get denied and then appeal and then go back and forth with all of those things. 'cause and that's not an easy process.

Lucas:

So sometimes, you know, like there's people who are, are born with some things that can occur and that's, that's a challenge. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and so they're, they've been living with chronic pain since the time they've, they've been alive. And that's a, that's a huge issue for a lot of people. There's other people too that they weren't born that way. They remember what it was like to live without pain and then something happens and now they live with chronic pain and both are very challenging. And the second one comes also with like a little bit of grief.

Christy:

I was just gonna say it's got you got it. You have, yes. You have to grieve the loss of your body working in a air quotes normal sort of way.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

Pain-free.

Lucas:

It's, it is really hard. And depending on what's going on, what the illnesses or what the chronic pain has caused from it can cause a numerous, I mean, numerous other issues with mental health or anxiety, depression, that sort of a thing. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and just that learning how to transition into this new life of having to manage this pain or this illness. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Is, it's very stressful and it's a huge adjustment.

Christy:

100%. And when you look at, you look at grief. So not only are you grieving the loss of your, well bo your body when it's at its best, you know, form. There's a lot of anger that comes with that. There's a lot of irritability that comes with it because you know what it was like. That would be so hard. Not that it's not hard. It'd be hard to be in pain your whole life too. But it's like, if you didn't know anything different, it's not, I don't know. That's a tough one.

Lucas:

I mean, at the end of the day, both versions suck. <laugh>

Christy:

100%, you know, 100% sucky.

Lucas:

There's, they're just different. And I think that each one has a tendency to invalidate themselves based off of the other one. And it's important that you don't invalidate yourself at all because your experience is valid and you aren't crazy. You're experiencing this and it's hard. And so have some kindness towards yourself.

Christy:

Right. On, on the flip side, if I, if I had always been in pain, like I would maybe be angry realizing I never got a chance to be pain-free. To know what that feels like to just have it for like even a week, day an hour.

Lucas:

Yeah. And that be just really hard. And then, you know, on the, on the other side of things too, being a parent of a child who's going through chronic pain mm-hmm <affirmative>. Is super difficult. Because this is the most important person in your life, or one of the most important person, people in your life. Because if you have multiple kids, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And to watch somebody that you care about so deeply go through that much pain. And you can't do anything about it.

Christy:

It is such a helpless, it's such a hope. Hopeless, helpless. It's like, and, and how do you support someone through that? Because then also the parents do this all the time where they feel like they have to explain away their children <laugh>. Like, like why they're not just with pain, but with everything. Like, my kid has insert diagnosis here. Like that's why they're doing this when it's like, let's just, we don't have to explain away our people, whatever. But I feel like there's probably a lot of explaining that you have to do with, you know, if they can't get to school or if they're not able to do certain things that other people are doing and people are asking, well, why aren't they doing that? Or why can't they do that? And it's like telling the same story over and over and over. It's exhausting.

Lucas:

It is exhausting. And or like there might be adults or other people in the child's life who are saying that, well, they're just using it as an excuse to not mm-hmm. To get out of things or whatever. And is that technically possible? Sure.

Christy:

Absolutely.

Lucas:

Absolutely. It is possible. And have I seen it happen? Absolutely.

Christy:

Absolutely. <laugh> <laugh>.

Lucas:

But it's, I always feel like it is better to err on the side of caution. Rather than invalidation.

Christy:

Well, and I've always said, because there are, with a lot of people that I've seen with chronic pain kids specifically, they do have better days than not better days. And they do have, they do have bad days, whatever. Either way, if they're asking for a break or if they're saying if they, if they're needing to use it for an excuse for whatever reason, there probably is something else going on. Even if it's not necessarily the pain, why are they avoiding it? And let's figure out what that is. I mean, we do a lot of that. The worst thing you can do is you don't put your kid in a situation where they're uncomfortable even if they're using it. It's fine.

Lucas:

So then like with illnesses and stuff, that's one area, but then we are also talking about sports injuries. And the impact that those things can have on people. And as somebody who has ran a bunch of marathons, Christy You have experienced multiple injuries that have caused what I would consider chronic pain. Even if it didn't last a full three months. Yes. And still caused some challenges from time to time. So what is that like <laugh>,

Christy:

I'll, I'll start with since I was little. My knees have been bad. Right. And, and this is the thing that everybody says. This is because everybody says they have bad knees because we're getting old and everybody says that. And I always feel like I have to say no, I really do have bad knees. Like I feel like I have to, like, I validate myself.

Lucas:

Like mine are for real bad.

Christy:

Yeah. Mine are like for real bad <laugh>. Um, but I did, at one point my kneecaps go in and out and one at one point my kneecap came out and when it came back in, it took a piece of my femur with it.

Lucas:

That's not supposed to happen. Okay.

Christy:

That is just, that's absolutely not supposed to happen. And so I ended up having to have a complete reconstructive surgery on my knee. Right. And I ended up being on crutches for over a year. And my, and the recovery was, was terrible. And then eight months into it, they realized that my meniscus, my meniscus was torn. So I had to go back in and repair my meniscus. So it was like two knee surgery. One huge knee surgery that I was out of work for eight weeks. And then another one, which like, it just wasn't a big deal. Like it's a meniscus. They go in, they fix it. I was like walking in three days, but with pain. But I was in, I was in, that one would would've been chronic pain 'cause I was in pain for like a year, but the hardest part of that whole situation was the eight weeks when I couldn't do anything. Like I was in my basement by myself. I wasn't able to work. It was so lonely. You, I mean, just doing anything was so hard and took up so much energy. Like taking a shower literally took me like an hour and a half. I'd be like, oh my gosh, I don't even wanna do it because it hurts so bad. Everything is in so much pain. Like, it just, and then the medications that they put you on don't help.

Lucas:

Right. Yeah.

Christy:

Because they make you feel stupid. Like I, I hated it. Like I could see the words in my head and I couldn't grab 'em. Like, I just couldn't put together a sentence. So I wanted to get off of those. 'cause I was like, Ugh, it wasn't helping my mental health. And I tend to favor my mental health over my physical health often, except I, my mental health. What have I got? And so that, the loneliness was the hardest thing for me because I, I couldn't, I literally couldn't go out and do anything. 'cause it was just every, I was in pain and I had, and I, and I was lucky because I have a lot of, I had friends, I had friends that came by and stopped over and that I would talk to like through texting every day. And like I had that, a lot of people don't have that.

Christy:

So having like a social network helped tremendously. But it's still, I'm a very extroverted person. Like I thrive on the energy of people. And if I couldn't do those things with the people that I wanna be with, that is a whew. We were in a dark hole. Lucas <laugh>, let me tell you what, that was rough. So that, that one was, was one thing situationally, I've also broken my foot twice. Yeah. Yep. I've broken my foot twice. I ran a marathon on a broken foot once. Highly not recommended. I didn't know it was broken.

Lucas:

Well, broke mile 14, right?

Christy:

Yes.

Lucas:

And then you finished it.

Christy:

Correct.

Lucas:

Because you're insane.

Christy:

Something like that. <laugh>. Well you just, you know, you figure you're already over halfway there.

Lucas:

Right? Naturally. Yeah.

Christy:

You just gotta go. But what I, I mean I went and I was in so much denial because this is a thing with athletes too, is that we are in denial when things actually hurt. Like we just think we'll just sleep it off and it'll be fine in a week. I didn't go to the doctor for like four weeks 'cause I was convinced that it was just swollen. Like I just had a real bad case of tendonitis. No, it was completely fractured. Like broken, not even a stress fracture. We are broken. And so then on top of having this broken foot that was not gonna heal for another, you know, eight to 12 weeks, you're not doing the thing that you do to take care of your mental health. 'cause I, I run. I work out for my mental health. That's what I do.

Christy:

And running is very different than doing anything else. To me. I was still able to cycle, I was still able to do some of those things, but it's not running and running is very different. And so then you're also grieving the loss. Even, even if it's not for three whole months, you're still grieving the loss of like doing this thing that brings you so much joy with the, and running is such a community sort of thing. And so you can see everybody else is out running and doing the stuff that you wanna do. And the fomo, man, the FOMO is so hard. And then I did it again.

Lucas:

Yeah <laugh>. That was wild.

Christy:

I know. And I don't, and, and I didn't, I don't know what it was. I'm convinced that it was stress, honestly,

Lucas:

That just life stress.

Christy:

Yeah. Because my life was super stressful during that point for lots of reasons. But when I went to the doctor, she had said, and I told her everything that I had gone on because I was like, why are my bones keep breaking? Is, and then I also had a stress structure in my femur. Like it was just like, I know, like that one was bad, that one I did not enjoy. And they don't just go away and there's nothing you can do for them. You know, like you can't cast a femoral head fracture. Like you can't do that, so you just walk around with it. Anyway, it was awful. But when I was talking to my, my doctor about this, I'm like, I am 43 years old. Like, things should not be breaking like this. And so when I told her about whatever, she goes, well, stress actually causes your bones to be more brutal. And so it could be that with all the added stress and whatever, because now I haven't had it, I haven't broken anything for a solid two years. A year and a half. Year and a half.

Lucas:

That sounds about right. Yeah. Yeah

Christy:

Yeah.

Lucas:

That's awesome.

Christy:

Right. But even if it's not chronic for three weeks, going through eight weeks of not being able to do something and just being in pain, it's just irritating all the time. 'cause everything is so much harder, you know, like going up and down the stairs. Or like we, Scott and I, my husband and I go to Vikings games, and so it's like I have to get from a hotel to a Vikings game on a broken foot or walking around with a boot or crutches or all of those things are extraordinarily stressful and exhausting.

Lucas:

Yeah. And it, it's to lose, I imagine, like, especially for somebody like you, but to, to lose that autonomy. To do everything yourself. Um, and to have to ask for help so often. I imagine was very frustrating.

Christy:

I'm not good at it.

Lucas:

No.

Christy:

No. And, uh, it's, and because you just wanna, you don't wanna burden, I I shouldn't say you. I, I didn't wanna burn it burden anybody with like, having to like, take care of me or whatever. I will, I will army crawl myself up the stairs before I ask for help <laugh>. Um, but there were, yeah. I mean, it was just like, I would, I remember sometimes sitting in the car thinking I have to get from this parking lot to the door of the restaurant and like having to psych myself up to do it because I just know it's gonna hurt.

Lucas:

Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

Christy:

It's emotionally exhausting.

Lucas:

<laugh>. Yeah. For real.

Christy:

I hated it.

Lucas:

Yeah. And so like, I've worked with other people who have had sports injuries, who have been like out for the season or there's just, I mean, just in pain mm-hmm <affirmative>. And even if they're not necessarily out for the season, but like, they're just, they're struggling. And you lose a piece of your identity when you can't do thing that you love. And that is incredibly damaging to somebody's mental health. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. When you're not able to do the thing that is who you are.

Christy:

Right? Yes. And I, I work with a lot of student athletes and I've had kids that have gotten hurt like right before the big game.

Lucas:

Oh, that's the worst.

Christy:

Right. And it's like they miss out on playing in the championship game or they miss out on wrestling at state or they miss out on being able to swim at sections. Like those, those ones are tough. 'cause you've, you've grown your whole life with this group of people as a team, and then you get to the big dance that you've been looking forward to your whole life and you can't play, but you have to watch the rest of your team play and you're happy for them. You really are. But you really, it's hard to not feel sad for you.

Lucas:

Absolutely. And the whole time you're trying to cheer while grieving.

Christy:

Right. And that's, and I think that, I mean, I get a lot of kids that feel guilt about that, but they're like, I really want them to win. Like, I, I wanna cheer for them, but man, I feel, I feel bad for myself. I'm like, nope, that's accurate. That is a, an okay way to feel.

Lucas:

Yeah. I think so that's kids and sports injuries, but also injuries that take you outta work. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like you had talked about. It's also really hard, especially when it's a work related injury. And I've had clients who really struggle to get WSI going.

Christy:

Oh, yes.

Lucas:

And so then they're out of work for a significant portion of time as they're trying to work with all this stuff. And then if WSI is not participating or getting cooperating you could be out of a paycheck Yeah. For a very long time. And potentially run into a lot of financial issues that way and have a ton of added stress on top of the fact that you're constantly in pain

Christy:

And you're, you also need insurance. <laugh>. So like if you, if you're, if you're not getting paid through WSI and, and I mean every company is different, but you have all these injuries and you need insurance and you need to work to have insur. I mean, it just is a slippery slope.

Lucas:

Yeah. It, it is really, really hard. And it, we keep talking about how it can lead to different mental health issues. And particularly when you have chronic pain, it can lead to a higher chances of just overall anxiety. But one of the big things that we see is depression. Which can lead to insomnia, fatigue. I see a lot of just general mood swings or like even increased suicidal ideation.

Christy:

Yeah. And it, in my, in my experience, I would say that people who suffer from chronic pain when they also have a mental illness, a mental health issue, it tends to be more severe in people with chronic pain than it is with people who don't have that added.

Lucas:

Yeah. It just gets compound on top of that, like what you were talking about where you, you couldn't do anything or be around people like mm-hmm <affirmative>. That is how depression sets in. And if you wanna know, like, if you wanna just a taste of what that might feel like, like think of when we were all quarantined. COVID right. Now we were, a lot of us were quarantined with like family members and stuff. And even that was hard. And imagine just being alone while your partner's at work. All day. And that's all day long. Or you're hearing about all of your coworkers doing stuff, or they're still texting you or like whatever, and you're missing out on that or you're not being able to participate in things that you, you love. I I really hope that everybody has a job that they're really passionate about and it's like part of them. And I know that's the case for you. And so you, again, not being able to do something that's part of your identity every single day. Man, that's hard.

Christy:

Yeah. And, and I, y'all, I I love my husband. He's a, he is a top-notch human being. But also COVID made me realize, and then when I had my knee surgery also made me realize that we need balance in our lives. Like you, I, you can't put all of your eggs into one basket, which is probably somewhere in our relationship podcast, I would guess <laugh>. But like, you have to have, you have to have a variety. You have to have your friends, you have to have, you know, your family. You have to have, there needs to be balance in your life. Like I saw Scott when we were quarantined, believe you me, I did <laugh> Every day. And that was great. And I was, I was glad that I had him there, but it became very apparent how important balance is.

Lucas:

Yeah. It really is. And so when you have, if like going from your experience, from my experience or just like things that you've worked with other people on, like what can we do as people who maybe are experiencing chronic pain to help make that better?

Christy:

Well, I think you find your social outlets wherever you can. I've said this in probably every podcast that we've ever done, but it is so important to have a supportive support system that you can rely on in that really understands where you're at. And I think that as annoying as it is to tell your story to people all the time, it's important for you to be able to advocate for yourself and let your people know where you're at and what's going on and how you're feeling. So they can respond in kind. So like, if, if you're, if you're, if you plan, you planned an outing and you're not feeling well and you tell your your friend group, Hey, I'm not feeling well, I just don't wanna go out, or I'm in a lot of pain today. Those people can come to you then and they can rearrange their schedules.

Christy:

You know, that helps make it better. But that's communicating how you're feeling, I think is a really important thing. Um, and being honest about that. But keeping people involved because it's really easy to push people away because you get sick of telling people all the time how you're feeling. And so it's just easy to like cocoon and be like, I'm just gonna be by myself. Because you get down on yourself and you think that you suck and that nobody wants to be with you and that you're no fun. 'cause you can't do all the things that everybody else wants you to do. And that's just not true. If, if you have good friends and good family, like they want you around or they will find a way to be around you.

Lucas:

Right. <laugh>. Yes. Yeah. And they want to know. If, if you're struggling or if you're in pain. Like, and I hope that as always, I'm getting a little bit ahead of myself, but like with, if you're gonna support somebody who's going through this, like please ask how they're doing, how they're feeling. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because it is, for us, it's all the all day every day mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so it feels like maybe we're talking about it a lot. And that's, we don't want to be a burden. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. We don't wanna be annoying, but if you're thinking about it, ask, because it is like, that is so freeing to be able to have somebody who's interested in how I'm feeling physically and to be able to share that, even if everything's going well right now. Even that's like, oh, cool, I get to celebrate that a little bit. <laugh>.

Lucas:

Like, that's, that's kind of fun. Totally. Like everything is going well right now. Like cool. And so some things to consider too, like, and you were kind of touching on this too, like just some lifestyle changes perhaps. And you have to, I get really annoyed with so little soapbox here. I get really annoyed with a lot of things that I find online because they're all, it's like they try to portray everything as like a one size fits all situation. Um, and that's just not the case. You have to find what works for you. For me, it was diet changes and increasing my exercise that really on top of the medication regimen mm-hmm <affirmative>. That really helped me manage my chronic pain. That is not the case for everybody. And in fact, what the exercise and diet changes look like in and of themselves are gonna be different for that person. And so don't, don't think that like, just because what I'm doing and you do the exact same thing and that that's not helping you, that there's something wrong with you. It's just, we gotta find what works for you. And I get really, I get really frustrated with people who try to portray like, if you do this, it'll cure everything. Or like, whatever.

Christy:

Well, and, and exercise gets put in a, in a box where I think people think it has to be intense. It has to be, I have to run, I have to cycle, I have to swim, whatever. Ensure maybe those things will help, but a lot of times yoga

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

Stretching, mobility work. Like it doesn't have to be this super intense thing. It's lit. Exercise is literally just moving your body. And so I I typically try to not even use the word exercise, I just say movement. Like what are ways that we can find movement? Because most of the time moving does make you feel a little bit better. But I think exercise can be such an intimidating word.

Lucas:

It it really is. And like I, when I really started to find out that exercise or movement was working, I started with walking. That totally, literally just did. And I wasn't walking fast. I was just moving for 30 minutes a day. And I found out like, oh my gosh, this is actually feeling good. And so then it just, and then it gradually just increased. And it started evolving as I was getting better. And right here we are. So.

Christy:

And we celebrate those things. You, you have to celebrate every win ev every time you get out for a walk and you feel better, it's like, oh my gosh, that's awesome. Go me. High five

Lucas:

<laugh> uh, stress management's really important as well. Because our, our stress levels are very much attached to how much pain we might be in or, or like, especially autoimmune disease illnesses. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Stress can exasperate those things quite a bit. And so just making sure that you are managing that can just help with lowering your chronic pain or chronic illness symptoms.

Christy:

Really, it's really big on TikTok right now. The man, like managing stress. Like you see, have you been on managing cortisol levels?

Lucas:

Oh yeah.

Christy:

<laugh> and like some of like whatever TikTok shop. Sure. But like there is a lot to be said with lowering your cortisol levels because cortisol really does impact a lot of areas in your, in your body and your brain and how everything works. And so finding ways to lower that stress rate. Like, you know, find a meditation app.

Lucas:

Right. Yeah.

Christy:

That's amazing.

Lucas:

Work on your professional boundaries. Managing, like, don't take work home. You, you spent eight hours there. Why do we have to take it home? Just try to find ways to relax while you're at home and manage that stress a little bit more effectively. And sometimes even that can help lower your, your pain levels.

Christy:

Find a distraction, like crush some candy <laugh>, you know. But just find something mindless tv. Just something that like you can get into without really having to think about it and just en just enjoy it. And I think people always get, they have a hard time between what's a distraction that's helpful and we use as a skill because that's a thing. And what is avoiding, because we're going into our screens. 'cause you know, for the most part, societally speaking, everyone's like, we have to get off our screens, we have to get off our screens. Sure. But sometimes we can be on them and we can use it as a skill of distraction. That isn't avoidance or losing ourselves in, in a screen. There's always a balance there. But I think people think, well, I don't wanna be on my phone all the time. And it's like, sure, I get that. But sometimes if you wanna sit and crush some candy for 15 minutes, that's okay.

Lucas:

That is, yeah. Totally. Okay. And then there's obviously like the, the more of the medical routes, right? Like, so like physical therapy or occupational therapy. Massage therapy is also really great

Christy:

Chiropractic care.

Lucas:

Christy love is the chiropractor.

Christy:

<laugh>. I do love my chiropractor.

Lucas:

He is pretty great.

Christy:

He's the best.

Lucas:

And or like even medical procedures can help at times, but obvi and the medications. But just consult your doctor with all those things. Um, we're not gonna go into that stuff 'cause we're not doctors.

Christy:

No. Massages.

Lucas:

Yeah.

Christy:

Oh good.

Lucas:

I love massages.

Christy:

Yeah. Or even like the hypobaric chambers with the water stuff.

Lucas:

Oh yeah.

Christy:

Or the, the, um, those salt floats, those dark, you know what I'm talking about?

Lucas:

Yeah or the cryotherapy. I haven't done that, but I've heard good things.

Christy:

I haven't either. I have too. Acupuncture.

Lucas:

Acupuncture is also a really good one. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yep. And then seeing a therapist.

Christy:

What? Yeah. <laugh> you don't say

Lucas:

It helps.

Christy:

Wow.

Lucas:

So it, there's a lot of ways that we can help with chronic pain or chronic illness in general. But one of my favorite ways to manage chronic pain, both personally in helping other people do this through something called mindfulness mm-hmm <affirmative>. And we've ha we have a whole podcast on that. So I'm not gonna go into a ton of, yay gonna go into a ton of detail about it, <laugh>. But the whole idea is behind mindfulness. For those of you who haven't listened to that maybe are,

Christy:

Go listen to it.

Lucas:

Please do. <laugh>. It's a gem.

Christy:

It is.

Lucas:

And <laugh> is, it's all about staying in the moment, right? So you have this chronic pain, this wave of pain that maybe comes over you and you are acknowledging that it's there. We are not judging that it's there and you are gonna let it pass mm-hmm <affirmative>. And remind yourself that it will pass. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. It will not be like this forever. Will it maybe come back? Maybe we don't know that mm-hmm <affirmative>. But right now this is what we're focusing on mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then you just let it go. And what we tend to do when we're not being mindful about our chronic pain is that we're, we're judging it and we're like, this is really dumb. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I can't believe this is still happening. Why am I going through this? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. All of these things. And you're holding on to the fact that you are in pain and not allowing it to pass and you're remaining miserable almost like, and you, and you don't necessarily have to. In those moments. I get that. The pain is miserable. Trust me. I get it. But letting those waves pass so that you can move on with your day. Is gonna be really important. And there's been a lot of studies on mindfulness and chronic pain for any of you fellow nerds out there, the eye roll Christy just gave me. <laugh>. Wow. That was something.

Christy:

I was just waiting for it.

Lucas:

Yeah. And they've, they've done tons of studies on this and shown that you can lower chronic pain with just mindfulness, with no, like medications involved in it mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so it really does help

Christy:

The, i I think I say this 9 million times a day too, is that everything changes and ends. Nothing is permanent. Everything, everything changes, everything ends eventually even, I mean, chronic pain is chronic, but you can have good days, you can have bad days. Everything is going to change and end. And hopefully you find something that will help assist you in making the good days better and the bad days not as bad.

Lucas:

Yeah. Don't be afraid to advocate for yourself. Like with doctors and stuff. Like if you are in pain and you don't feel like you're being heard or it's not being taken seriously, advocate for yourself.

Christy:

Change doctors, get a second opinion.

Lucas:

You are not crazy. And so, but, and at the same time, I think the doctors don't, they see this every day. And I'm not giving them an excuse, but they, it's not as real to them as it is to us. And so sometimes I think that they brush people off and that's obviously not the right thing to do, but do not be afraid to, to advocate for yourself to make yourself heard. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because what you're going through is real and you deserve to feel better.

Christy:

Well, and we talked about this with finding a therapist that's the right fit for you. If you go and you see a therapist and you don't like, you don't click with them and they're like, it's just not a fit, and you don't feel like you're getting what you need from them, go find another one. And if that one doesn't work, go find another one. The same goes with doctors. If, if you feel like they're not listening to you, go find another one. If you feel like they're not listening to you, go find another one. Like it's you, you know, you're not stuck with a doctor just because you, and I think a lot of people think that. It's like, I'm on the schedule, this doctor is now my doctor and we are locked in and that's all it is. And we, no. If if you don't feel validated and you don't feel like they're hearing you go someplace else.

Lucas:

So then with, if I have a loved one that's experiencing a chronic pain mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I want to, I wanna do better at supporting them. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. We should, let's talk about some things that we can do to do to make them feel supported or help them feel supported. And I think maybe a fun way to start this would be what not to do first <laugh>,

Christy:

Tell 'em that it's fine. That they're just, that they're overreacting.

Lucas:

It's fine.

Christy:

It's fine. You're fine. Like, oh my gosh. Again, you're, you, you're, you're feeling like you're in pain again.

Lucas:

Right. You're clearly overreacting.

Christy:

Yeah. Clearly. Yeah. It can't be that bad. Like just get up and do it.

Lucas:

Yep. Yeah. Oh, I've heard that. That one was a little triggering.

Christy:

Oh sorry <laugh>. Love that. Lucas's eyeballs just got like the size of saucers. <laugh>. I was like, Ooh God.

Lucas:

Do not say that one. One that.

Christy:

I hit a nerve. <laugh>.

Lucas:

I'm <laugh> I've, I've also heard this and I said it earlier, but you don't look sick. Or you, you don't look like you're in pain. Like, yeah. Good. I'm glad that the mask is working.

Christy:

Right. And also go listen to our relationship podcast because if you are in a relationship where these are things that somebody is saying to you.

Lucas:

Yeah that

Christy:

That's not it.

Lucas:

No

Christy:

Yeah know. No.

Lucas:

Which, speaking of, I don't know what this actually was, has nothing to do with like relationship, like romantic relationships. But like, so I don't know why I said speaking of, but <laugh> going to <laugh> our brains.

Christy:

Speaking of, this, nothing has to do with anything that we were just saying.

Lucas:

If you have a chronic illness, I really want to encourage people or chronic pain to, to communicate that with your employers. And really share with them like what's going on as, as comfortable as you are. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. As you're able to, that has been one of the best things that I've done personally. And one of the best things that other people I've worked with have done. Because you get that validation and when you explain like, like if I go up to Shelby and I'm like, I need to go home mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because I, my stomach is really hurting. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. She knows me well enough now. Like she knows like enough about my illness to know like that is bad. Like, that's a big deal because I'm in chronic pain.

Christy:

Well, and you'll tough it out for as long as you possibly can.

Lucas:

We all do.

Christy:

I've watched you do it.

Lucas:

Yeah. But like, that's the thing is like, we do tough it out because our baseline is so big. Right. Like, and so if somebody with chronic pain, if you're an employer listening to this, if somebody with chronic pain comes up to you and you know that they're struggling and they're like, is is not good today, I need to go home. Like it's probably like they should have not come to work at all. <laugh> sort of levels.

Christy:

'cause they're in pain all of the time. So when it gets to a point where they can no longer feel like they can do their job, then it's really bad.

Lucas:

It's, it's real bad. Yeah.

Christy:

I've seen you tough out some pretty nasty days.

Lucas:

Yeah <laugh>. Yeah.

Christy:

And, and you're like, I think I can do it for three more hours. Or you could go home. How about that? How, how about you just go home? Which is something that you can support people. Who you love, who have chronic pain when they're being stupid and trying to do things that their body is telling them. I don't think I can do it to just be like, just, just rest.

Lucas:

Yeah. There's a lot of guilt.

Christy:

it's okay.

Lucas:

There's a lot of guilt in when it comes to like leaving work early or not being able to do the things that you used to be able to do because your pain is bad or whatever. And so really making sure that you are reminding your loved ones. Like it's okay. This is not your fault. And we're gonna get through this.

Christy:

Right. I always tell Lucas, I was like, if I was in as much pain as you were in right now, what would you tell me to do? He goes, well, I would tell you to go home. Yep. I know.

Lucas:

It's different. It's not.

Christy:

it's not, it's, it's not different. It's not different at all.

Lucas:

So some things that you like trying to understand their illness and their pain. So like educate yourself. Right. If if there's an actual name for the diagnosis, Google it. Learn what it's like and that alone can help you really kind of empathize mm-hmm <affirmative>. With somebody and what they're going through. And then ask questions. Because every, just because it's the name doesn't mean that they experiencing exactly how you read it. So what is it like for them? And that is su I will say that, that's super validating for me. If that's a boundary for you, like as the person with an illness, like it's okay to to say like you're just not comfortable sharing that or whatever. But just know that it's coming from well hopefully I I would hopefully it's coming from a place of care. Right. Well that's

Christy:

What you gotta watch your tone. Yeah. You know, 'cause it's different. It's different when I say, tell me about this thing you have versus Oh, you have Crohn's. I don't even know what that is. Like let me, let's, what is that? And you're more than happy to tell me.

Lucas:

Yeah. Yeah.

Christy:

<laugh> You are and that's not the case with everybody. But find out what works for you because I think a lot of times people with chronic pain feel like they're a burden. And so it's like, man, I'm already a burden because I'm already, I'm always in pain that I'm sure people are sick of me talking about it.

Lucas:

No. And I've actually found that the more I've talked about it, the more I've found people who actually experience this disease too. So.

Christy:

And you're all living in hiding.

Lucas:

Yeah. It's crazy. It is. We, we don't talk about it and then all of a sudden I'm like, yeah, I have Crohn's disease like me too. And I'm like, what? Yeah.

Christy:

Yeah I had no idea.

Lucas:

We've known each other for years, and <laugh> we didn't know this. You know, and now all of a sudden I have a person who totally gets it. And that is super validating.

Christy:

Oh for sure. And they can advocate and and support you too.

Lucas:

Yeah, exactly. And so then having that emotional support, receiving that validation or, and then giving that validation to others mm-hmm <affirmative>. Who are wanting it is really, really helpful to them. Self-care. Is encouraging that like Christy was saying about me. <laugh>, um, go home,

Christy:

Rest. It's fine. If, if I know we had plans today, but we can do our plans another time when you're feeling better, that's you take care of yourself.

Lucas:

Right. And on the flip side, always inviting them to things. Even if you know that they're probably gonna say no to it. Because you know that they're not feeling super well. The invitation means so much. And not getting invited is very discouraging. And so keep inviting them. Even if you know what the answer is because it just shows that they're not forgotten. Mm-hmm <affirmative> that you still want them around, that they're not a burden, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Christy:

Yeah, totally. Because we do.

Lucas:

So we always want to encourage you to ask the question, is it just me? You're likely not alone. And there's always a way to help. If anything we've talked about today resonates with you, please reach out.

Christy:

Do you have a topic you'd like us to talk about? Message us. We'd love to hear from you. We are, isitjustme@dakotaranch.org? Or you can text us, email us, DM us. Carrier pigeon morse code. Ooh. Sand signals.

Lucas:

Wow.

Christy:

Right.

Lucas:

I'm always impressed with which ones you come up with every week.

Christy:

<laugh>. Just let us know what you wanna hear about. 'cause we are more than willing to talk about just about anything.

Lucas:

And don't forget to share us with your friends and family.

Announcer:

Thanks for listening to today's episode of Is It Just Me? To learn more or make an appointment for psychiatric or mental health services at Dakota Family Services, go to dakotafamilyservices.org or call 1 800 2 0 1 64 95.

Other Podcast Episodes