About the Hosts

Christy Wilkie provides therapy for children and adolescents, ages 5-25, who have complex behavioral health issues. She combines her extensive clinical expertise with a belief in kids, and has a unique ability to find and develop their strengths. She works hard to be an ideal therapist for her clients, doing what is best to fit their needs.

Lucas Mitzel provides therapy for children, adolescents, and adults, ages 5 - 30. He believes building relationships with clients is the most important piece of successful therapy. He loves what he does because it allows him to walk next to people he would never have met had he chosen a different profession, as they work to make amazing life changes. He has the honor of meeting people at their worst, all while watching them grow into the people they’ve always wanted to be.

Transcript
Navigating Life Through Mindfulness

Featuring Christy Wilkie, LCSW and Lucas Mitzel, LCSW, Dakota Family Services.

Announcer (00:00):

This episode of, is It Just Me, is brought to you by Dakota Family Services, your trusted partner in mental and behavioral health, whether you need in-person or virtual care, the team of professionals at Dakota Family Services is dedicated to supporting children, adolescents, and adults in their journey to better mental health,

Christy (00:21):

Disrupting life patterns and life routines that aren't serving you.

Lucas (00:26):

It's how we feel that keeps us going.

Christy (00:29):

You can be a masterpiece and a work of art all at the same time.

Lucas (00:39):

Hey everyone, I'm Lucas.

Christy (00:41):

And I'm Christy.

Lucas (00:41):

You're listening to the, Is It Just Me podcast

Christy (00:44):

Where we aim to provide education, decrease the stigma, and expel some myths around mental health.

Lucas (00:48):

Christy, is it just me or is it really hard to be in the moment?

Christy (00:51):

It is hard for me to be in the moment a lot of the time. Yes. And I would assume that it's probably difficult for a lot of people.

Lucas (00:58):

Yeah. It's incredibly difficult because everything is pulling us in every direction all the time.

Christy (01:04):

And we're always looking for what's next or preparing for what's next, or figuring out how you're gonna do 14 things before everybody has to go to bed. There's just a lot to going on.

Lucas (01:12):

There is, and there's a term for being in the moment. And it's called mindfulness. Or being mindful <laugh>. And we've talked about it a million times.

Christy (01:22):

Maybe a million in one.

Lucas (01:22):

Yeah but we've never really like described it or like how to do it or what, how it all works.

Christy (01:27):

Right. 'cause it kind of like, I feel like people, when they hear you say, we need to work on being mindful, like it's a very therapist, like sort of, okay. Whatever sort of a thing. And people don't really realize how beneficial it really can be, even if it sounds like therapist mumbo jumbo.

Lucas (01:42):

Yeah. So how would you describe mindfulness? Like in a sentence?

Christy (01:47):

I describe mindfulness as paying attention on purpose.

Lucas (01:50):

Paying attention to what?

Christy (01:52):

Paying attention to the moment that you're in. The things, the things that are around you. The what do you, you know, go through the five senses. What do you see? What do you hear, what do you feel, what do you, whatever the other senses are, <laugh>, <laugh>, all of those things. And, and paying attention to it on purpose and without judgment.

Lucas (02:10):

Yeah. I, it sounds really simple, sounds really easy, but it's a, it's actually a very complex and difficult skill to master. And it, it's not just like a, a skill that you turn it on, on and off, like it, it can be that, but it also on a deeper level can be sort of like a, a lifestyle choice. Living in the moment and just allowing yourself to experience what's going on right in front of you has long-term benefits to it as well. And the goal of mindfulness is to reduce suffering and increase happiness.

Christy (02:42):

I'm all for that.

Lucas (02:42):

Right?

Christy (02:43):

Yeah.

New Speaker (02:44):

Increase control of your mind.

Christy (02:45):

I'm all for that too.

Lucas (02:46):

Sounds great. Um and experiencing reality for, for what it is.

Christy (02:50):

Yeah, that makes total sense.

Lucas (02:52):

Yeah. There's been a lot of studies on mindfulness and the effects that it can have, but it's got its roots in like Southeast Asia and comes from Hindu and Buddhism. And I am apologize if I got that wrong, <laugh>. But it's it's been very much westernized in the last, I don't know, two, three decades or so.

Christy (03:15):

Is it a specific number? Do you know that for sure?

Lucas (03:16):

Nope. I, no, that's why I said two to three <laugh>. Yeah. Just making it up.

Christy (03:20):

Give or take a hundred years.

Lucas (03:21):

Right? And really been used for different therapy practices and it's been the core, one of the core principles of Marshall Linehan's dialectical behavioral therapy, as well. So it's been really taking off and I think we're hearing about it more and more and more, but like, nobody really knows what it actually is.

Christy (03:40):

Right. Or they have a, an idea of what it, I think a lot of people go to, like, it has to be meditation or it has to be like, I imagine you're a cloud.

Lucas (03:50):

Right. And it could be that it,

Christy (03:51):

It it, if it works for you. For sure, it could be that. But it doesn't have to be just that

Lucas (03:56):

There's 1,000,001 different ways to do mindfulness and we're gonna talk about a couple of them today. But before we do that, like I, there's a couple of people that really benefit from mindfulness, I think, and I, I I wanna point those populations out. But people who are having a difficult time with anxiety for one.

Christy (04:13):

Yeah. That's a big one.

Lucas (04:15):

Yeah. That's probably one of the biggest people who have a really hard time with depression really benefit from mindfulness, specifically if you struggle with thoughts of suicide. This is also a really helpful skill for you. But also getting out of just like the mental health field, people who struggle with chronic pain. There's been a lot of studies that have shown that it actually decreases chronic pain over time and increases life satisfaction and happiness. They've done specific studies on cancer patients and also patients with Crohn's disease and have found that it's been very beneficial in those populations.

Christy (04:47):

Yeah. I also believe that the high blood pressure population benefits greatly from mindfulness.

Lucas (04:52):

Yeah, for sure. You're lowering your heart rate. Makes a lot of sense. So when we talk about, like, when you increasing control of the mind, like I'm reducing suffering and increasing happiness, that makes a lot of sense for one of the goals.

Christy (05:05):

Yes.

Lucas (05:05):

To me, like it seems pretty selfish...

Christy (05:05):

Just In general, a pretty, pretty solid life goal.

Lucas (05:07):

Right. And that can includes include like physical health, relationships, distress tolerance, et cetera, but increasing control of the mind. It increases your ability to focus on things because you're in the moment. It allows you to detach from thoughts, images, or sensations that you don't necessarily want.

Christy (05:25):

Yeah. I mean, I think specifically if people that are people who are anxious, right. You're either replaying something that you said eight years ago in your head and how you could have done it differently and how everybody's judging you because of that one thing. Or you're thinking about all the terrible things that are going to happen in the future. Like those, that's where you are. And you're never really in that moment to be able to enjoy it when you're always worried about either what happened or what's next. And so to just like in this moment right now, you are okay. Is like such a powerful thing to be able to like, take control of and hold onto.

Lucas (05:59):

And if this moment, this is a huge piece of mindfulness that gets missed. Let's say that this moment isn't great.

Christy (06:05):

Because not all moments are <laugh>.

Lucas (06:08):

Exactly. Mindfulness talks about how we have to let every moment pass as well. So we need to be in the moment, but we also need to let that moment leave when it wants to. This is really helpful for people who are going through chronic pain or chronic suffering. Um if you're having suicidal thoughts or you're having a really rough night, like Yeah. Being mindful of that moment, like, what's happening right now, this is painful, but we also understand that this moment will end.

Christy (06:32):

I say this all the time. People said, everything in life changes and ends. Everything, everything changes and ends the way that you feel right now is not permanent. And which, you know, I wish I could feel happy all the time, that would be great. But that's, but even happiness doesn't, doesn't stick around all the time because life happens and stuff goes on. But everything changes and ends.

Lucas (06:53):

Yeah. The another really helpful thing, just looking at our cognitive functioning is that it, it mindfulness decreases our reactivity of mental events or mental distress. So it could be panic, anxiety, traumatic stress symptoms. And when you are actively mindful throughout your day, especially when you make it your lifestyle, it's when those things come in, you are more accepting of it. And it makes it less distressing because then you also know that it's also going to end. And you can move through those events much easier, rather than what is the natural response of fighting it and trying to make it go away. Rather than just letting it happen.

Christy (07:30):

Is that the Teflon mind? Is that kind of what they call that?

Lucas (07:34):

Maybe, I've never...

Christy (07:35):

It comes in, you let it sit and then it comes out. Just like slips. You know, come in, let it experience it. Cook the eggs, get 'em out.

Lucas (07:42):

Cook the eggs.

Christy (07:43):

<Laugh>. Well, I'm not cooking.

Lucas (07:44):

I was gonna say.

Christy (07:45):

Although that I'm not cooking the eggs, but someone

Lucas (07:47):

You using a cooking analogy is something.

Christy (07:49):

I know. I just I don't know where that came from.

Lucas (07:53):

<Laugh> And then experiencing reality as it is, it's, this is when we let go of mental constructs, ideas, judgments about what is, and we are able to see our worst imaginings of reality that, that they're not true.Um anybody who's anxious can relate to this. You are

Christy (08:11):

What?

Lucas (08:12):

<Laugh> Like, you have a moment and you have like worst case scenario popping into your head. And like, oh my gosh, this is the end of the world. We catastrophize. And when you're present in this moment, you're able to understand or, and taking out those ideas or those judgments that can come with those thoughts. That's not reality. And then you allow yourself to live into what, live in what reality actually is, which isn't that bad.

Christy (08:34):

Right. How many times have you and I had a conversation with each other because we're anxious people to be like, you know what, every, every time I've gone in thinking it was gonna, something was gonna be just terrible. It's never, it's never gone as bad as you think it's gonna go in your head. So why waste our time in those, in that space thinking, what if this catastrophic thing happens and it's, you're causing yourself undue distress because it's never been that bad.

Lucas (08:59):

Yeah. All the time we talk about that. And I think that that's a really good segue into a concept of wise mind, right?

Christy (09:06):

Oh, sure.

Lucas (09:07):

Yeah. Because when, so wise mind is a DBT concept, and it's very much attached to mindfulness where we have these two minds and they are emotional mind and reasonable mind. And your emotional mind is the state of mind when your emotions are in control and not balanced by reason. So in emotional mind exists, our feelings, our emotions, shocking.

Christy (09:30):

I chill in that sphere.

Lucas (09:31):

Me too. <Laugh> <laugh> and facts, reason, logic aren't necessarily important in those moments. So what, what would be an example of Christy of like, that you can think of, of living in your emotional mind?

Christy (09:42):

Like when, if you have to do a presentation and you're really nervous and all you can think about is everybody's gonna make fun of me, I'm gonna, I'm gonna fall over my words, all of that. And you're not able to access the rational mind that says, when has that ever happened? There's no evidence to say that everybody else is more focused on themselves than they are on you, and you just can't access those thoughts to balance it out and you're just nervous.

Lucas (10:08):

Yeah. Great example.

Christy (10:09):

Thanks Lucas.

Lucas (10:10):

You're welcome.

Lucas (10:11):

So then reasonable mind is the opposite of that. And I, whenever I teach this, I always use a Venn diagram. If for, if you don't know.

Christy (10:18):

The circles.

Lucas (10:19):

The circles that have the middle, like they intersect, right? And with reasonable mind, it's the extreme of using reason, which is not balanced by emotional value. So you are evaluating things purely logically. It's ruled by facts. You're basically pragmatic. So emotions aren't involved in this part of your brain at all. And that can also be problematic. And I think that reasonable mind or emotional mind gets a bad rap, and reasonable mind gets too good of a rap.

Christy (10:46):

Yeah, I would agree with that.

Lucas (10:46):

Because we value things like facts and reason and logic, like that's never talked about in a negative, in a negative light. But with DBT mindfulness, we don't wanna live on extremes. So if you're purely reasonable about everything, you're gonna have a really hard time with relationships. You can't have love if you're purely in reasonable mind, you can't have grief, you can't have anything.

Christy (11:10):

Empathy.

Lucas (11:10):

Empathy.

Christy (11:11):

Empathy is hard. And that's really, and you need to have empathy to have good relationships. I always think of, like, when I, when I talk about reasonable mind, I think of like accountants, people who deal with like numbers.

Lucas (11:22):

I'm sorry, accountants,

Christy (11:23):

<Laugh>. Well, they, because because there's, there's no room for emotion in numbers.

Lucas (11:28):

It's true.

Christy (11:29):

You know, it's like this is what it is and this is what, that's what it is.

Lucas (11:33):

Right. I can be upset that two times two equals four. It doesn't change the fact that it's four.

Christy (11:38):

Right. Exactly. There's no emotion to it. I can't get pissed off at the twos because they get together and they make four. <Laugh>, I mean, I suppose I could, but that would be,

Lucas (11:46):

And I have <laugh>, but

Christy (11:49):

In high school a few times. Yeah.

Lucas (11:51):

Yeah. I wish it just ended in high school. Anyways, <laugh> then we bring that together and we have wise mind. So Wise mind is where we meet somewhere in the middle and we take both sides of things and give them a fair shot and then make a decision based off of our inner wisdom, which can be similar to just like our intuition. And wise mind can be difficult sometimes to get to.

Christy (12:12):

Alot of times. I mean, it is a, it's a very kind of zen place to be <laugh>, but it's, it is, it takes some work to figure out how to live in there.

Lucas (12:20):

Yeah, and like I said, we wanna avoid the extremes. So some examples of how this might work when we look at the extremes and why, why is mind can be so beneficial. So like, if you're going to pick a job or you're looking for a spouse or something like that. So like with a job, if I only went after something that was something that I loved, that I enjoyed, that I had fun doing and did not worry about the pragmatic things such as how much it pays me, what the benefits are, what the hours are going to be, all of those things. I might be having fun every day, but I may not be able to live very well <laugh> or have like the things that I like to have, or I don't know even afford a place to live. So, whereas on the other side, if I'm only focused on like the money and making sure that I get paid like a million dollars, but I hate every second of my job. I'm, it's not gonna be great either.

Christy (13:07):

You're probably gonna be depressed.

Lucas (13:08):

Probably. Yeah.

Christy (13:10):

Spent a lot of time at work.

Lucas (13:12):

Yeah. And so we, you have to find a middle ground there that has both the reasonable part and something that has the emotional side of it as well.

Christy (13:21):

Yeah. It's, I as, as soon as you were doing that and you're like, this, oh, you, you could have fun at work every day. And I was like, yeah. Like, I wanna do, I wanna do that. And then you're like, but there's also the, the what you get paid sort of thing. It's like, yes. And I think of people who come in to interview, like, I've got a friend who had a great interview, love the job, and I was like, well, how much are I gonna pay you? And she's like, I didn't ask. And I was like, what? You've gotta ask those questions. And it's, I think sometimes people feel guilty asking questions like that, but it's like this, it's your livelihood. Like you have to ask those questions. Like, just accept it and not have any idea how much money you make. <Laugh>. Okay. <laugh>.

Lucas (14:00):

Yeah. And so that's when we're looking at wise Mind and mindfulness, mindfulness is required in order to use wise mind. Because we have to be able to consider what's happening right in front of us and consider all of the facts, what we're feeling, what's going on around us, and in order to get to that wise mind situation. Right. One thing that I, just to make sure that I remind people is that emotional mind is really, really good at pretending to be wise mind or reasonable mind, because typically emotional mind is very loud, for people. And it's not uncommon for it to say, no, this is a fact. Like, we know that this is how we feel, or like we know that this is what's going on when it's, when you actually look at it, it's not like that.

Christy (14:43):

I think that happens a lot in arguments. Like if you, when you get angry and you're trying to rationalize why you acted in a way that you acted, and so it's like you're kind of pulling on a fact, but it's not really, you're just trying to convince yourself that you were right. <Laugh>. Or convince yourself that your response was justified in some way because they did this. And so that's a fact.

Lucas (15:03):

<Laugh>. Yes.

Christy (15:04):

Not necessarily.

Lucas (15:06):

Yeah. It, it could be grounded in a fact, but your interpretation of that fact was very emotional.

Christy (15:10):

Right? Yep.

Lucas (15:11):

So it's,

Christy (15:12):

You need an objective third party sometimes to be like, that's not actually a rational fact. <Laugh>.

Lucas (15:17):

Right. So with mindfulness, there's a bunch of different ways to do mindfulness. So there's three, they call them what skills, and then there's three how skills. So the what skills are, how, like what you do to practice mindfulness and the how skills are, how you do it with

Christy (15:31):

That makes, that makes a lot of sense. <Laugh>.

Lucas (15:33):

Yeah. Yeah. <Laugh>, they try to make it easy for us. With what skills? You, there's three of them and you, you pick one of them to do at a time. You don't do all three at a time with the how skills that would...

Christy (15:45):

Be very mindful.

Lucas (15:45):

Yeah, exactly. <Laugh>. And with the how skills you do all three of them at once.

Christy (15:49):

Well, that is tricky.

Lucas (15:50):

Right. But we'll, we'll go through that in a second. So the very first thing is for a, what skill is to observe. And so this is where you attend to events, emotions, other behavioral responses without necessarily trying to change anything. We are simply just observing. And you can observe using any of your five senses that Christy could not name us.

Christy (16:08):

I know three, I I know three of them for sure. <Laugh>.

Lucas (16:12):

<Laugh>. So if you were I can't remember which ones you named off. I was gonna pick an easy one for you. So like with observing, let's just use site.

Christy (16:20):

That's a good one.

Lucas (16:20):

Yeah. So like, what would that look like, practically speaking?

Christy (16:24):

Well, what you see. So like, I see Lucas taking a ch chug of coffee right now. <Laugh>,

Lucas (16:31):

I'm not chugging it.

Christy (16:32):

That that was a judgment word. I saw, I saw you lifting your mug.

Lucas (16:36):

Yes. Yep. Okay. So I'm glad that happened. <Laugh>. <laugh>. So you'll notice that like when she well, number one, she was observing and also describing, which is not necessarily what we're looking for, but it's really hard in when you're trying to do it out loud. But you're just observing what's going on, right? And I'm just noticing it and then trying to remain nonjudgmental, which we'll get to in a second, that's, it's so hard to do that part.

Christy (17:05):

Yeah. Yes. And I think like observing, like, I, I think actually mindfulness has proven to be even more effective outdoors. I feel like being outside is one of those things where you could just, just look at what's around you. Like just take it in and not, not judge it. Don't have to talk about it, but just look at what's around you. And it's like, just doing that alone, I feel like is powerful.

Lucas (17:28):

One of the best places to do observation, mindfulness is doing like an athletic activity, like on a long distance run, for example. You have to observe all sorts of things going on with your body. You're just making sure everything is good and observing where you're at, what's going on around you. And if you're not mindful, if you're not aware of everything that's going on around you, you could trip, you could, I mean...

Christy (17:52):

Get eaten by a bear.

Lucas (17:54):

Sure. <laugh>. Yeah. We got dark, but yeah, let's go there. You could. And it's really beneficial to be in that state of just observing. And when you,when you're like that, 'cause Christy runs a million miles all the time. Uso when you can get in that state of being mindful and just observing everything, what does that feel like to you?

Christy (18:13):

It's very zen. Like, it just, it just feels like you're just moving. And it's almost, not gonna say effortless, but effortless ish. It's, it feels very meditative with your steps and then hearing whatever's going on in your ears and taking in what's going on around you. And it's just kind of, you just kind of get lost in the moment. It just kind of feels like the world just kind of melts away. It's just you in the road, man.

Lucas (18:36):

Yeah. It's a great feeling.

Christy (18:37):

It is. It's beautiful.

Lucas (18:38):

Yeah.

Christy (18:39):

I think that's why it's addicting.

Lucas (18:40):

Well, there's that. So then with describing, it's applying labels to the behavioral or environmental events or stimulus, which requires a person to learn not to take emotions and thoughts as accurate and exact reflections of environmental effects. So just because you feel scared, for example, doesn't mean that there is an actual threat to be scared of. So people who are anxious, for example, I, I can't, if I had a nickel for every single time I've had this experience, I'd be very, a very wealthy man of just being anxious but not necessarily having a reason or no, nothing happening around me. And I'm just still worried.

Christy (19:17):

Yeah. Which is what anxiety is, right? Yeah.

Lucas (19:19):

Right.

Christy (19:20):

It doesn't have to be a thing.

Lucas (19:21):

Yes, or being depressed and not necessarily, air quotes, having a reason for that to occur today or something.

Christy (19:28):

Well, and feeling like you need a reason makes you more depressed. 'cause You're like, I got everything. Why do I still feel like this?

Lucas (19:33):

Right. And it just doesn't matter 'cause that's just how you feel right now and that's mindfulness, <laugh>.

Christy (19:39):

Yeah. Right.

Lucas (19:40):

And knowing that it's gonna end. So applying labels to it can be like what Christy was doing when I was drinking my coffee and just putting a name to whatever it is that you're observing. So then with participating fully, this is where you participate without self-consciousness, you enter completely into an activity of the moment without separating yourself from the ongoing event. So again, with athletes, they get into this mode,where like, I know football well, so we'll go, we'll go there. Uif you a football player, especially a pro football player is going to do things and they're not even thinking about it. They're just doing it. And that's them participating fully in that event. And we have all sorts of, everybody has a thing where like, it's just automatic. They just do it without thinking about it. 'cause They're fully into it and they're just very mindful about what's going on. Now, just like with an athlete, this can take a lot of practice to get to because if you're constantly thinking about what's the next step, what's the next step? What's the next step? Like, that can cause you to be out of mindfulness and maybe your performance is gonna go down. Because if like a pro football player has to think constantly what the next step is they're probably probably gonna make a mistake.

Christy (20:48):

Yeah. I think it's easier to, to do that in something that you're good at. Right. So like, I can go and do therapy every, like, that's just, I don't have to think about it. You just kind of do it. It's, we, we do it every day. But if somebody wanted me to go up on stage and like sing karoke and fully immerse myself in that experience, little harder to do that without all of the other feelings <laugh> coming in about that. So I think it's, it's to practice in all of those situations and maybe start with something you're really good at and then maybe it'll generalize to things that in situations where you're not as comfortable.

Lucas (21:24):

Absolutely. So then we go down to the how skills and these ones are hard.

Christy (21:28):

<Laugh>. <laugh>. How hard are they?

Lucas (21:31):

Well, it's funny 'cause the first one's nonjudgmentally and saying that it was hard as a judgment.

Christy (21:35):

Oh, we already failed.

Lucas (21:37):

Yeah. So <laugh>, so, uh doing things nonjudgmentally means that we are not prescribing a judgment to them. And this is, this can be, I'm gonna see, it's, it's difficult. <Laugh> as I say, another thing, typically when you know, you're making a judgment when you use a phrase or a word that isn't clear to everybody. So if I say it's difficult, that's not necessarily very clear to Christy as to what I mean by that.

Christy (22:05):

It's a very relative word.

Lucas (22:06):

Right?

Christy (22:06):

Yeah.

Lucas (22:06):

So that can be an indication that maybe you're using a judgment word. And we wanna just try and stay away from that. And the best way we can do that is by just using facts. What are we going back to the observation or describing? What are we observing? What is actually happening? So when she said that I was chugging my coffee, he was lifting up the coffee to his mouth to drink it.

Christy (22:28):

Right.

Lucas (22:30):

Okay. There was no judgment there. That's just what...

Christy (22:32):

Nailed it.

Lucas (22:33):

Yeah. <Laugh> just what was happening. So why is that so important?

Christy (22:37):

Because you placed value and worth on things based on how you judge them. Because you, you're judging other things. You're also judging yourself. It's just a bad, I feel like it's a bad mental habit to get into to judge things. And it's not, it's just not good for your mental health. And it, it insinuates that something is there that maybe isn't.

Lucas (22:55):

Right. Yeah. Well, and our judgments could be incorrect.

Christy (23:00):

That's true. Like I mean, mine aren't, but yours might be <laugh>. <Laugh>. Yeah.

Lucas (23:06):

Huh. <Laugh>. Yeah. So if I'm judging that like right now that Christy doesn't like me because she was just rude <laugh> that

Christy (23:14):

So many judgment words here.

Lucas (23:15):

Right? Yeah. I could be incorrect about that. Maybe that was not her intention. Maybe she was just poking fun at me because maybe she is my friend, she or whatever.

Christy (23:25):

It's easy sometimes.

Lucas (23:26):

Right.

Christy (23:27):

Yeah.

Lucas (23:27):

Thanks. <laugh>

Christy (23:28):

Easy is also a judgment word. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay.

Lucas (23:33):

I know, and it doesn't mean, one thing that I see a lot of people struggling with judgment words is that it means that you're de you're denying consequences for like your kids or you're denying or that you're approving of something that maybe isn't, that you don't want to approve of. And that's not necessarily the case. It doesn't mean that it's just this blanket approval of everything because you're not gonna judge it. Um.

Christy (23:57):

Oh, I see what you're saying.

Lucas (23:58):

Yeah. Something can be like, not what you want. And you can also apply non-judgmental words to that. So an example of this could be like, if somebody is yelling at me and getting really up upset, being really rude to me, like I can use, I can describe that situation non-judgmentally by saying that they have a raised voice. Their voice is louder then usual, they're using these words towards me. I am feeling this way. None of that is a judgment. And I'm not approving of it either. So this stuff is happening and it's, it's going to end. And I'm also going to address it. But I'm not judging it right this second.

Christy (24:38):

I think by doing that too, you also steer clear of more arguments I think, of parenting because this is just where my brain is today, where you see your kid doing something wrong. Right. And, and there we have a tendency sometimes to jump to conclusions. And so instead of saying, I saw what you did, blah, you say, Hey, it looks like you were hiding your phone when I came into the room. I am wondering what you're doing. Instead of coming at it like they're automatically doing something wrong and you need to react to that. It opens up a conversation rather than immediately put somebody on the defensive because you're only saying what's what you what you know to be true.

Lucas (25:17):

Absolutely. Yeah. And it gives them a chance to explain themselves. Yeah.

Christy (25:20):

It in a, in a non-defensive sort of way.

Lucas (25:23):

Exactly. Because you can't have a conversation with somebody if they're defensive.

Christy (25:25):

Nope. And I always say, I say this a million times a week, as soon as somebody raises their voice, everybody stops listening. Nothing. Never have I ever had somebody yell something at me and I went, oh, I get your point now, <laugh>. I get it. You just had to say it louder.

Lucas (25:41):

Right?

Christy (25:41):

Yeah.

Lucas (25:42):

Yes. So if you're still not convinced that non using non-judgmental words is, is difficult to do sometimes or can be a challenge for some people. I mean, it is an election year. We're not gonna get into that <laugh>. But I'm just saying think of whatever candidate you are voting for or not going to vote for. And try to describe them in your head without using a judgment phrase. Um, f you are describing them as dumb, uneducated, or like, if you think that they're evil, or if you think like, whatever, whatever words coming to your mind right now, you are judging them. If you are saying, well, they hold this view and this is the policy that they would like to en enact, or they are wearing this outfit and this is what it looks like now we're not being judgmental. It is very difficult to do that. It is. If I were to ask Christy, I'm not gonna do this to you <laugh>, but if I were to ask you to describe the Green Bay Packers.

Christy (26:42):

Oh dear.

Lucas (26:42):

In a non-judgmental way, you would have a really hard time doing that.

Christy (26:45):

Yeah. I would. I, as none of the words that come to my head are kind, I would, I could say like, I could do green and yellow. That's good.

Lucas (26:55):

That is good.

Christy (26:55):

They have numbers on their jerseys.

Lucas (26:58):

Your eye is twitching right now. <Laugh>. Like it is

Christy (27:03):

This it's hard.

Lucas (27:04):

It is hard. It takes a lot of practice and it, it takes a lot of non-judgmentalness, is that a word?

Christy (27:11):

<Laugh>? Well, you just made it one.

Lucas (27:14):

It takes a lot of being non-judgmental to yourself. There we go. To identify that maybe a mistake was made and then correcting that. Um because this is, we're all, we're practicing this. And this is not a skill that you just learn overnight and you're like, oh, I'm good now. This is a lifestyle like something that you have to work towards to make, to improve and, and be more practiced at.

Christy (27:35):

It's funny because we have a bunch of our clinicians here, or in a DBT cohort where they're getting trained in DBT. We do d they do DBT groups at night and they are kind of eat, sleeping, breathing DBT. And so it's been good for me though, because all of these people that are around me are all very careful about the words they use. And so <laugh> we'll, we'll be in, we'll be in a supervision meeting and someone say, oh, it was just so difficult. Nope. That's a judgment word. And so, like, when, when I'm surrounding myself with people who are actively trying to live that way is so good for me because it's just kind of rubbing off. 'cause Now I'm, I think about what I'm saying in front of you, because if I say a judgment word, I promise you that they will also tell me, that I'm using a judgement word.

Lucas (28:21):

We also do this little sign where we knock on the table twice. And that's 'cause a judgment was made.

Christy (28:27):

Oh my gosh.

Lucas (28:28):

Just to let everybody in the meeting know that a judgment was made.

Christy (28:30):

And we caught it.

Lucas (28:31):

And we observed it <laugh>, so...

Christy (28:32):

We observed it. Look at you. Yeah. This, it's just, I think it's also, I mean, it's just something to be said with the people you surround yourself with too.

Lucas (28:41):

Absolutely. Yeah. So then the, the next piece of this is, is called being one mindfully or doing things one mindfully. And that is essentially we were just focusing on one thing in the moment. And you'll notice that as we are talking about the how skills, when we, when we discuss the, what we have already kind of been talking about the how <laugh>, because you can't have one without the other, but you also, like you, it's difficult to talk. It's just there's no real good order to do this because <laugh>, it's all just meshed together. Right? So doing things one mindfully means that you were focused in on this moment. So if like right now, we, Christy and I are doing things one mindfully because this is all we're focused on. If one of us started texting on our phones or was answering emails, we are no longer doing this one mindfully. And thus not practicing mindfulness. When you can do things one mindfully, you're gonna find that your anxiety is much less, that you are much more relaxed. Tension will go down. Your quality of life is going to improve, and your thoughts are gonna be much more under control, um.

Christy (29:46):

I would assume that it would also impact your relationships with people.

Lucas (29:48):

Absolutely.

Christy (29:49):

You, you think, I mean, you go out to dinner now, right? And there's like, everybody's got their phone out. It's like two people are sitting in a booth and they're both on their phones rather than, or Instagramming their food <laugh> or you know what, whatever, whatever it is that they're doing, they're not, they're not present in the moment with the people that they're with. And that's the purpose of spending time with people. And so if you could learn how to do that, and it just, it deepens your relationships and it makes the other person feel like they're worthy of your time.

Lucas (30:16):

Right? Yes. This is why it's a lifestyle. If you, if you can implement mindfulness in every situation, it's gonna look different for every situation, but it's going to improve across the board just quality of life and relationships and your ability to control your emotions and your thoughts. It's just, it's a wonderful skill.

Christy (30:36):

Yeah. I think now that I brought up phones, I think phones are one of the biggest things that get in the way of people being mindful anymore because there's, I mean, there's just always stuff coming through. I have, I have 138 text messages on my phone right now, and I'll get to them eventually. But you can use your phone mindfully too. Like, that can be a mindful practice where it's like, I'm gonna take 15 minutes and I'm just gonna do this. I'm gonna answer all, I'm gonna answer all of these and then I'm gonna be done. But it's, it, it doesn't have to, you can do anything mindfully.

Lucas (31:05):

Back up 138.

Christy (31:06):

Yeah.

Lucas (31:06):

Texts.

Christy (31:07):

Yeah. I don't know. It's, I'm assuming it's a group chat. That's my guess.

Lucas (31:10):

Okay.

Christy (31:10):

Yeah.

Lucas (31:11):

All right. Sure.

Christy (31:12):

It's excessive.

Lucas (31:13):

I Mean...

Christy (31:13):

It's the Olympics, the Olympic start today Thoughs, so I bet it's all, all like talking about track.

Lucas (31:18):

That's fair. I probably have two messages on my phone right now. <Laugh>, I don't know what that says about me.

Christy (31:24):

And they're probably from me,

Lucas (31:24):

<Laugh> Probably. And I dunno what that says about either of us, but it's fine. Being one mindful also means that whatever happened in the past, even if it was five minutes ago, it's in the past. And we move past that. And what's going to happen in the future is gonna happen in the future. We leave it there. We don't pull it early and we don't hold onto it. We let things go. And this is possibly one of the toughest parts of being one mindful.

Christy (31:49):

Totally, especially if you're anxious.

Lucas (31:51):

Yes. Or you have trauma. Or you have depression or any, I mean anything. Or just living life.

Christy (31:58):

Right. Yeah. 'cause You, it's hard to accept that. I think it's human nature to wanna control the outcome of something. And it's, it is hard to accept that no matter how hard you try, you can't really control what's going to happen in the future. 'cause We don't know the next minute. I don't know what's gonna happen the next minute. I have no idea. And so thinking that I if by doing something or thinking about it harder, that I somehow control what happens in the, it's just not, it's not a rational thought.

Lucas (32:25):

Right. And like, going with like our work. So if, if I weren't being one mindful where I focus on work while I'm at work, and then when I'm at home, I'm at home, I'd be answering emails, I'd be calling people while I'm at home, which takes away from my family. And doesn't allow me to have those relationships with them. On the flip side, if I am at work and I'm constantly doing stuff that's family related, I'm probably gonna get in trouble. Because I'm not paying attention to my clients now. So there's balance on both sides. And that's, that's what DBT, that's what mindfulness is all about, is about balance. And that's what...

Christy (32:59):

Star Wars is.

Lucas (33:00):

All about. It is. Yes. Thank you for that, <laugh>.

Christy (33:02):

You're welcome.

Lucas (33:03):

I, I really appreciate that.

Christy (33:04):

Actually. I knew that you

Lucas (33:04):

Would, I'm a huge Star Wars nerd. If, if people don't know that <laugh> <laugh>, that was a weird sigh. <Laugh>, we're gonna move past it. That was a judgment. So being mindful means we were being present in our own experiences with what's happening right now. Lastly, we have being effective, which means we're doing what works for us. So what is my, what is mindfulness or effective for me is not gonna be effective for Chrisy. And we need to really, that's why it's really important to, when you're learning these things, have somebody help you out because, or you're doing a lot of research because we can, Christy and I can help you figure out what it is that works for you. We have maybe some go-tos that work really well for a lot of people. But I have, I mean, we can get creative because...

Christy (33:50):

For sure.

Lucas (33:50):

Like I said, there's 1,000,001 ways how to do it.

Christy (33:53):

Yep, I mean, I just think of anything that you fully immerse yourself in. I don't know why I go to Legos, but I always go to Legos. 'cause Like if I'm, if I'm, if I'm doing something like that, I'm terrible at Legos, by the way. I wish I was good at it, but like that's all I'm focusing on. And it, you're paying attention to how the pieces feel and how, how everything goes together and the cliques and the clacks and whatever. It doesn't have to be laying down on a couch and doing a meditation.

Lucas (34:18):

Right.

Christy (34:19):

'Cause that doesn't work for me.

Lucas (34:21):

No, no. The sitting cross-legged going, ohm, not, not for me.

Christy (34:25):

No. But it highly effective for some people.

Lucas (34:27):

It is great for others. Yeah. And that's wonderful for you <laugh>, the, the for when focusing on being effective, it's really important to identify whatever it is that your goal is. And so if you are, for example you're driving to work and the goal is to get to work safely. Right. Or get to your destination safely.

Christy (34:48):

Solid goal.

Lucas (34:49):

Um now if somebody cuts me off, might have a lot of emotions that my emotion mind talks about or tells me to do. Might have some urges there, like cut them off, tailgate them.

Christy (35:00):

Some hand gestures.

Lucas (35:00):

Some hand gestures, <laugh> roll down my window and say some things. Right. Like all of those things may or may not be justified because of what happened. But is that the effective thing I need to do in order to accomplish my goal? The answer would be no. Because that I'm not being safe and I might end up getting into a crash or get pulled over or whatever.

Christy (35:19):

Yes.

Lucas (35:20):

So we have to do what is effective to meeting our goal, even if what our emotional mind is telling us to do is justified.

Christy (35:29):

Right. Well, and I think those emotional responses, they're things that you think make you feel good in the moment. Like you're really, you're really getting them back. And when you give yourself just like 10 minutes to calm down, we're typically not super proud of the things that we do when we're in a highly emotional state, which causes more depression, anxiety, self-loathing, that kind of thing. So it's always thinking about too, in 10 minutes, how am I gonna feel about this?

Lucas (35:54):

Right.

Christy (35:54):

Am I gonna be super proud of how I responded to this stressor? Probably not.

Lucas (36:00):

Yeah. Also knowing and reacting to the actual situation. So let's not react or respond to a situation in the way that we feel like it should be. React to how it is.

Christy (36:10):

Right.

Lucas (36:10):

So going with the the driving example. So like if signs on the freeway tell people to drive in the right lane except to pass people who tailgate slower drivers in the left lane, <laugh> switch their lights off and on, they keep on honking instead of just passing in the right lane. And they're acting as if all people are willing to follow the highway directions and they're not. And so we need to just react to how it is, not necessarily how it should be.

Christy (36:34):

I'm feeling triggered by that because that is one of my pet peeves. Slow, slower cars in the right.

Lucas (36:40):

Yes, I agree with you. I agree.

Christy (36:42):

I know.

Lucas (36:42):

But not everybody does.

Christy (36:43):

I know. And I'm, I am living in the how I think it should be versus how it is.

Lucas (36:48):

So then if you react to how it is, what would you do differently?

Christy (36:51):

I would accept the fact that not everybody knows the rules of the road. And that's fine. And I would, I would just do whatever I could in order to get to where I needed to go.

Lucas (37:00):

You were trying so hard not to judge them.

Christy (37:02):

I'm trying.

Lucas (37:02):

You're doing really good.

Christy (37:03):

Thank you.

Lucas (37:03):

You did really good.

Christy (37:04):

I...

Lucas (37:05):

Yeah. You'd get in the right lane. You just pass 'em.

Christy (37:08):

Yeah, yes. That's what you would do.

Lucas (37:10):

Yes. Without any hand gestures.

Christy (37:12):

With zero hand gestures. Except for I would probably stare <laugh> who is driving this car who doesn't know the rules of the road.

Lucas (37:19):

Right? Oh my goodness. So that is in a nutshell, mindfulness. And as you can see, like it's not, it's simple an idea, but it is complex in how it is enacted sometimes. And can be really difficult to do. So. But there's a lot of different examples of how you can be mindful or practice mindfulness that don't involve meditations. Body scans are a really good example. But they're not for everybody.

Christy (37:45):

Yeah. Progressive muscle relaxation. That's my go-to. I really do like those. And I think people think that they're, they're hard to access and they aren't. Like you can go on Spotify type in progressive muscle relaxation. And just find a voice that doesn't annoy you.

Lucas (37:58):

<Laugh>, That's so important.

Christy (38:00):

Because there's a lot of 'em that I'm like, I can't listen to your voice. Not that I'm judging their voice, Lucas.

Lucas (38:05):

Right. But you're observing maybe an emotion.

Christy (38:07):

Yeah.

Lucas (38:07):

That comes with those voices.

Christy (38:08):

Yes.

Lucas (38:09):

Yeah.

Christy (38:09):

And I want one that's going to help put me to sleep.

Lucas (38:11):

So then you're being effective.

Christy (38:12):

Yes.

Lucas (38:13):

Look at...

Christy (38:13):

Look at us. This is great. But if you wanted to try some of those, it's easy enough to put 'em into Spotify or YouTube's got some good ones that are the calm app.

Lucas (38:21):

Yeah. I think Headspace. Did you...

Christy (38:23):

Oh yeah, Headspace, yeah.

Lucas (38:23):

Is another good one that has a bunch of like muscle relaxation or just like body scans.

Christy (38:29):

Yep.

Lucas (38:29):

Some other things though. We've talked about doing sports, like running. Is a really great mindful activity. Puzzles, legos, anything to do with art, is gonna be mindful. Or it can be mindful I should say. 'cause You can make anything not mindful. <Laugh>.

Christy (38:45):

That's that's true. Yeah. Anything you can fully immerse yourself in.

Lucas (38:48):

Yeah.

Christy (38:49):

Golf.

New Speaker (38:50):

Reading.

Christy (38:51):

Oh, yeah. Reading's a good one actually.

Lucas (38:53):

Yeah, and I find that as I teach these things to people that they already do this. They, they're, they already are involved in activities that are mindful. They maybe just can make some tweaks to make it better. So think of if you're not sure, think of things that you're doing that you feel really relaxed doing. Or do you just, everything just kind of slips away and you're just in involved in right here, right now you're involved in the activity. And if you can identify with that, maybe it's fishing. Maybe it's hunting.

Christy (39:25):

Does candy crush count?

Lucas (39:26):

I would say so. If you're in non-judgmental about what's happening and you are one mindful and you're doing, you're being effective. Yeah. You're pressing...

Christy (39:34):

Video games?

Lucas (39:35):

I would say some. There's an asterisk there. <Laugh>.

Christy (39:37):

I know.

Lucas (39:38):

Right?

Christy (39:38):

I know. That's why I'm asking.

Lucas (39:39):

Yeah. I get that question a lot. And so there's some video games that are really good. An example of that could be something like Minecraft. Lots of kids love Minecraft. And especially if you're playing it on the creative mode, it has calming music and you are focused on building something and you're doing one thing at a time and really just focused in on getting like the numbers correct. And you're counting things and whatever. There's a lot of stuff you can do in Minecraft. But yeah, that would be considered mindfulness. Now if you put it on survival mode, which is where like you got the zombies and the creepers and all that stuff like that might not be as mindful because you're maybe worried about something. Popping up behind you or losing all of your stuff. And now you're not mindful playing games like Fortnite, call of Duty. Like first person shooters. Not mindful. In the slightest <laugh> sorry guys. There's a lot of games that would qualify for this. And you just have to find which ones are work for you and which ones don't. But video games can be a really good option for a lot of people.

Christy (40:38):

Tetris.

Lucas (40:39):

Tetris is another great example. Yeah. When it comes to, let's see here, like things like doing a puzzle, not just like a picture puzzle, but like trying to figure out a problem. Maybe a, like a crossword puzzle. Those sorts of things.

Christy (40:56):

Sure Su Sudoku. Sudoku.

Lucas (40:57):

That one. Yep.

Christy (40:59):

Yep. That one.

Lucas (40:59):

Haven't done that in years. <Laugh>.

Christy (41:01):

Rubik's Cube.

Lucas (41:01):

Rubik's Cube. Yeah. It's another really good, good, good example. So we could keep going and going and going, going on a walk can also be mindful. Sitting out in the in the woods can be really mindful.

Christy (41:13):

Let's give it up for yoga.

Lucas (41:13):

Yeah. Oh, how have we not talked about yoga?

Christy (41:16):

I know, that's a good question.

Lucas (41:17):

Yeah. Because that one's so I guys huge in mindfulness. So all of these things are really good examples and you can modify it. You can add things or take things away to make it more or less mindful, but you just do what works for you. And that's what's most important. These things do not have to, to be like an hour long. Like, especially if you're gonna do things like a body scan or something like that. I'm the first one to admit I can't do a meditation or a body scan for probably more than five minutes. And that's okay. That's just what works for me. One thing that I get a lot, when you're practicing these things and getting better at them, your mind is still working on becoming mindful. And so you're going to have these intrusive thoughts pop into your head and try and grab your, dis your attention. It's okay. Try not to get frustrated. No judgment, when it happens. And we just, we notice that it occurred. We let it go and we come back to what we're focusing on. If you're gonna get frustrated with yourself, it's just gonna make things worse. And it's not your fault. That an intrusive thought went in your head. So let's not

Christy (42:15):

'Cause it's intrusive.

Lucas (42:17):

Yes.

Christy (42:17):

Yeah. It's not your fault when somebody invades your house. It's the same as thoughts.

Lucas (42:23):

Yeah. So just gently let it go, come back to what you're focusing on and it'll get easier and easier as you do that. It might happen a billion times in the five minutes that you do it, that you do a mindfulness exercise, that's fine. It's okay. It's gonna get better next time.

Christy (42:35):

It's all, it's all about practicing it. Right? I mean, it's like the more you practice it, the more you can, the less intrusive the thoughts get, the more you practice flicking them away.

Lucas (42:45):

Exactly.

Christy (42:46):

Not flicking them away, letting them come in, experiencing them and then letting them go.

Lucas (42:51):

Yes. Let them leave.

Christy (42:52):

Yes.

Lucas (42:53):

Nice job.

Christy (42:53):

Thank you <laugh>.

Lucas (42:56):

One thing that as we wrap up here, we are going to record a, a body scan or a mindfulness exercise that will be uploaded separately from this. So if you are interested in trying that, we are gonna provide one for you, just as an example. And then...

Christy (43:13):

Because Lucas has a soothing voice.

Lucas (43:14):

That's what I've been told.

Christy (43:15):

That's what, that's the feedback that we're getting. So, we're gonna give the people what they want.

Lucas (43:19):

Give the people what they want. So we're gonna upload that. It'll be separate so you don't have to like fast forward through anything to get to that. And it'll be uploaded with this episode. So feel free to look for that activity if you are interested in doing so.

Christy (43:32):

Cool.

Lucas (43:32):

So we always want to encourage you to ask the question, is it just me? You're likely not alone. And there is always a way to help. If anything we have talked about today resonates with you, please reach out.

Christy (43:40):

Do you have a topic you'd like us to talk about? Message us. <Laugh>, we would love to hear from you. Our email is, isitjustme@dakotaranch.org.

Lucas (43:50):

And don't forget to share us with your friends and family.

Announcer (43:52):

Thanks for listening to today's episode of Is It Just Me? To learn more or make an appointment for psychiatric or mental health services at Dakota Family Services, go to dakotafamilyservices.org or call 1 800 201 6495.

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